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David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
If the USGA and the PGA no longer used the Oakmonts, Winged Foots and Oakland Hills of the world, would it hurt the game? In other words, if they chose not to use them because they weren't wlecomed, the courses weren't able to withstand todays technology without getting silly with the set up or whatever other reason, would the game suffer? Would it be better off if these classics weren't put under the knife to accomodate these organizations? Does the typical golf fan care if the majors were not on "hallowed ground"? If these ties to the games past were severed, does the game suffer?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2008, 01:21:52 PM »
David, One could argue that using them is ruining the game. Of course, it's the senseless defense of par that has caused the disfigurements, tree plantings and other weak design elements that take away from the greatness potential inherent in the sport.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Kavanaugh

Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2008, 01:25:59 PM »
I thought Oakmont was made better because of the hosting of the US Open.  Clearly Torrey Pines has been improved.  Funny thing is, the USGA slowed down the greens at Winged Foot.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2008, 01:28:48 PM »
Would major league baseball be worse off if Fenway Park and Wrigley Field were discarded?  :'(

Phil_the_Author

Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2008, 01:31:14 PM »
Mark,

Is that yankee Stadium about to undergo the wrecker's ball?

John, what about Bethpage. Clearly a classic course, yet first used to unanimous acclaim in 2002. Without it's success there would be no Open at Torey Pines and possibly courses such as Chambers bay might not have been or be considered...

John Kavanaugh

Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2008, 01:33:12 PM »
Could anyone please name a classic course that has been harmed by the USGA or PGA?

Philip,

Are you saying that the USGA was good to Bethpage and the people who now play the course?

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2008, 01:37:54 PM »
Trick question. The usga doesn't do the disfiguring. And in Oakmont's case the club fixed all the ills of the past misperceptions. Just as Pebble is now disfiguring their venue so they will stay viable in the eyes of the usga. It's their issue, not the usga's.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2008, 01:40:57 PM »
How much work does chambers have to complete to be ready for the open?

David,
I think you got caught in a whirlpool of a much bigger issue.
How about this question in stead:

What would happen if the US open was only held at modern courses - like the Perdue course...

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2008, 02:03:07 PM »
John,

You asked, "Philip, Are you saying that the USGA was good to Bethpage and the people who now play the course?"

Of course they were. Are you saying they weren't? If so, why?

Actually, though, the idea of hosting a championship such as the U.S. Open at a public and municipal golf course of the type that Bethpage is and represents wasbeyond consideration. That is why it was greeted with such surprise when announced to the golfing world in general.

Prior to the Open there were more media requests for Open credentials that at any other prior or since. Literally several thousand credential requests were turned down and only a single writer not affiliated with any media concern, print or internet, was granted them. It is his definitive book on the Open that is already being scrutinized by some media people in preparation for next years Open.

This was a large gamble by the USGA that became even larger as a result of the 9/11 tragedy. If the course didn't stand up to the tests of hosting the Open, not least of which was competitively, the "grand experiment" would have failed.

That it succeeded beyond all expectations can be seen in that it was awarded the Open again to be played just 7 years after this first one. Talks have also now followed in hopes of having Bethpage (not the USGA who wants this) to host a US Amateur and further Opens.

If Bethpage had failed it is hard to see how other Opens and Amateurs now scheduled and those that will be would have come to happen.

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2008, 02:27:39 PM »
Could anyone please name a classic course that has been harmed by the USGA or PGA?

This summer at a theater near you:

"The Mystery of the Black Hill Spruce"

starring Lon Hinkle and Inverness Golf Club







paid for and planted by the USGA

Sorry John, I thought you may be constipated and could use a laugh.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2008, 02:36:08 PM »
Could anyone please name a classic course that has been harmed by the USGA or PGA?

Philip,

Are you saying that the USGA was good to Bethpage and the people who now play the course?

Pinehurst #2 - the fairways have been cut in half from the pre-Open widths and it has taken many of the angles out of play. It has also made many of the fairway bunkers into rough bunkers.

KBanks

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2008, 02:45:46 PM »
Could anyone please name a classic course that has been harmed by the USGA or PGA?

Philip,

Are you saying that the USGA was good to Bethpage and the people who now play the course?

Pinehurst #2 - the fairways have been cut in half from the pre-Open widths and it has taken many of the angles out of play. It has also made many of the fairway bunkers into rough bunkers.

Would alteration of the fifth and twelth greens at Merion be under consideration, but for the USGA?

Ken

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2008, 03:05:00 PM »
In the big picture, classic courses have basically been dropping out of the rotation forever, starting with Prestwick, and up through Merion (albeit making an encore) and Cherry Hills (due to elevation) and golf has survived so far.  There are a bunch that were somewhere between one hit wonders and legitimate classic course venues. 

Why would you think the current era would be any different?

Mark's baseball analogy is a good one.  Isn't Fenway already on the road to the wrecker ball?  And, I have to ask, what percentage of average fans prefer Wrigley (on a regular basis) over one of the new creature comfort filled stadiums, such as the ones I am staring out my office window at?

What % of fans will want an Open full of iron tee shots on a short, tight Merion course vs. seeing Phil and Tiger bomb drivers on a newer course?

Outside of golf and the well established trend for nostalgia, isn't American culture in general all about "ring out the old, ring in the new?"

I see the ramp up of using new courses tied with the 1997 ramp up of distance from the ProV1.  The competition is the primary concern and the older courses were - and will continue to be - used when it was believed that they provided the best challenge and venue.  Many can no longer do that, and more will hit that group, kind of like income tax bracket creep, over time.

Of course, things move slow and there are a variety of opinions, so the USGA and PGA are hedging their bets by mixing new and old. I bet that in a decade, the mix will go from 70 old-30 New to the other way around. IF there are fan/player complaints or logistical problems, then they may adjust the rotatations.  In reality, its probably a constant adjustment for those organizations anyway.

But, eventually, I think playing the Open at say, Winged Foot will be done as a rarity and novelty as much as playing at Bethpage or Torrey is now.

Again, just MHO>

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2008, 03:35:45 PM »
East Lake, a course I know well, has suffered because it is unable to extend fw's to their normal widths solely because it hosts the Tour Championship. Not to mention a number of greens and tees that have been relocated or changed over the last 15 years solely to toughen the course for the pros.

But as to the main quesion, I think the PGA and USGA ought to build their own championship courses. Build 'em to have all the same features they setup historic courses to have. They would be shot-testing, back-breaking, sphincter tightening, unforgivng monsters. They can defend par to their hearts' delight.

Build 4 or 5 of them with a nice geographic spread. Open them to the public when not being used for a tournament. The PGA and the USGA can keep all the event profits.

All with the hope that they will leave historic courses alone.

Bob

 
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 04:07:01 PM by BCrosby »

Chris Garrett

Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2008, 04:01:25 PM »
The simple answer to the topic question is yes, the game would suffer if we ceased use of the classic courses.    My gut says that as the PGA and USGA announce future tournament sites, we'll begin to see some of the top notch new venues work their way into the mix.  Whistling Straits has already been tagged by the PGA as a rotating venue.  The USGA and hopefully the PGA have learned some lessons from the tribulations that the PGA Championship went through in it's fall to the fourth and sometimes forgotten major.  BCrosby, Valhalla is for all intensive purposes "a PGA venue."  Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I don't feel as if I'm watching a major when I watch a tournament at Valhalla... it doesn't grab me in any way.

The average golf fan has been lulled into a false sense of what a Championship caliber venue should be.  History and nostalgia are not requirements.  It so happens that we often seek the classic and historic clubs and layouts because the game saw a near 50-60 rut in golf course design.  Very few venues from the mid-30s through the early 90s could be considered worthy tests of golf in the sense that the USGA and PGA need.  Hopefully, with the resurgence in course design, some worthy tests of golf can work their way into the tournament spotlight.

Clubs like Oakmont, Winged Foot and Pebble Beach will always be a part of the tournament scene, as they rightfully should be.  If the USGA and R&A can yank the cord back on technology a bit, perhaps classics like Merion (despite it's USGA comeback), Olympic Club, Cherry Hills, and Cypress Point would once again be on display for golf fans the world over.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2008, 04:30:02 PM »

Clubs like Oakmont, Winged Foot and Pebble Beach will always be a part of the tournament scene, as they rightfully should be.  If the USGA and R&A can yank the cord back on technology a bit, perhaps classics like Merion (despite it's USGA comeback), Olympic Club, Cherry Hills, and Cypress Point would once again be on display for golf fans the world over.

Chris,

I'm not sure what you mean by this last part....both Merion and Olympic Club are indeed US Open sites for 2012 and 2013.  It appears they can still hold thier own just fine.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2008, 04:37:17 PM »
John,

You asked, "Philip, Are you saying that the USGA was good to Bethpage and the people who now play the course?"

Of course they were. Are you saying they weren't? If so, why?



Philip,

I love the USGA, the people who work there, the rules they enforce, the tournaments they embrace and everything for which they stand.  I too agree that the choice of Bethpage to host a US Open was a seminal moment in all our golfing lives.  I am proud and convinced of my prediction that the 2008 US Open at Torrey Pines will prove to be the finest championship of modern times only edging out Bethpage because of the weather gauranteed by the good people of San Diego.

Chris Garrett

Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2008, 04:43:23 PM »
Kalen,

Thanks, that last part was a bit confusing I suppose.  My suggestion was clubs like Olympic and Merion have to be "tricked" up by the USGA to hold their own against par (i.e. Payne on the 18th Green at Olympic).  The strategic features of the golf course are not going to be fully realized due to changes in technology. 

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2008, 04:51:14 PM »

But as to the main quesion, I think the PGA and USGA ought to build their own championship courses. Build 'em to have all the same features they setup historic courses to have. They would be shot-testing, back-breaking, sphincter tightening, unforgivng monsters. They can defend par to their hearts' delight.

Build 4 or 5 of them with a nice geographic spread. Open them to the public when not being used for a tournament. The PGA and the USGA can keep all the event profits.

All with the hope that they will leave historic courses alone.

Bob

 

Bob,

What an interesting idea.  Why don't you go to Far Hills and pitch it to USGA.  Four regional courses to host the US Open and maybe a few other elite USGA events.  People would swarm to play an Open course.  Look what the Open did for Pinehurst.  The upcharge for #2 pre-1999 was $20 for hotel guests.  The price soared after 1999 and the course is jammed all the time. 

Maybe this sort of venture would be problematical for a not-for-profit operation like the USGA.  But imagine if an empire builder like Dean Beman ever became Executive Director.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 04:53:58 PM by Phil Benedict »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2008, 04:55:38 PM »
John,

You expressed, "I am proud and convinced of my prediction that the 2008 US Open at Torrey Pines will prove to be the finest championship of modern times only edging out Bethpage because of the weather gauranteed by the good people of San Diego..."

That may very well be, but just realize that in 2009 Bethpage will once again put Torrey Pines back on the lower pedestal from where it can look far, far above and only wish it were Bethpage!  ;D

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2008, 05:03:00 PM »
In the big picture, classic courses have basically been dropping out of the rotation forever, starting with Prestwick, and up through Merion (albeit making an encore) and Cherry Hills (due to elevation) and golf has survived so far.  There are a bunch that were somewhere between one hit wonders and legitimate classic course venues. 

Why would you think the current era would be any different?

Mark's baseball analogy is a good one.  Isn't Fenway already on the road to the wrecker ball?  And, I have to ask, what percentage of average fans prefer Wrigley (on a regular basis) over one of the new creature comfort filled stadiums, such as the ones I am staring out my office window at?

What % of fans will want an Open full of iron tee shots on a short, tight Merion course vs. seeing Phil and Tiger bomb drivers on a newer course?

Outside of golf and the well established trend for nostalgia, isn't American culture in general all about "ring out the old, ring in the new?"

I see the ramp up of using new courses tied with the 1997 ramp up of distance from the ProV1.  The competition is the primary concern and the older courses were - and will continue to be - used when it was believed that they provided the best challenge and venue.  Many can no longer do that, and more will hit that group, kind of like income tax bracket creep, over time.

Of course, things move slow and there are a variety of opinions, so the USGA and PGA are hedging their bets by mixing new and old. I bet that in a decade, the mix will go from 70 old-30 New to the other way around. IF there are fan/player complaints or logistical problems, then they may adjust the rotatations.  In reality, its probably a constant adjustment for those organizations anyway.

But, eventually, I think playing the Open at say, Winged Foot will be done as a rarity and novelty as much as playing at Bethpage or Torrey is now.

Again, just MHO>




I would go to Wrigley and Fenway a dozen times each before I would tend to go to any of the newer squeakly-clean ballparks and I've been to the new ones in SD, SF, Seattle, Baltimore, Phoenix, Denver, etc.  It's why it's nearly impossible to get a seat this year at Yankee Stadium, even though the Yankees themselves are barely average.

You can't replace the nostalgia of those places - Ruth, Gehrig, the Splended Splinter, Ernie Banks, Joe Dimaggio, Harry Karay, on and on and on...  

Golf & Baseball share a sense of nostalgia - it's part of what makes them unique in sport - and uniqueness of the ballparks & golf courses are part of the nostalgia.  The old courses embody it - and it's important at many levels.

I suppose it's been discussed plenty - but isn't the problem more about the fixation with par, or the impact of technology, or just increased talent & conditioning of players?

John Kavanaugh

Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2008, 05:03:51 PM »
Pine Valley does not host a USGA or PGA event and they continue to improve the course for championship caliber play.  What makes you think the members of Winged Foot or Oakmont would be any different?  Decent men raise strong sons who hit the ball farther than they do or did....Why not let our boys have at it and learn the game as we did instead of playing pitch and putt as 6800 yds has now become.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2008, 05:04:28 PM »
Phil -

I too thought it was a good idea ;), but I confess I was being facetious. I can think of legal, tax, business, cultural, administrative and other reasons why it won't work.

The fact remains, however, that if you want a venue severe enough that scores around par will win, there are much better ways to run that test than mucking around with significant historic golf courses.

Bob  

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2008, 05:04:40 PM »
John,

You expressed, "I am proud and convinced of my prediction that the 2008 US Open at Torrey Pines will prove to be the finest championship of modern times only edging out Bethpage because of the weather gauranteed by the good people of San Diego..."

That may very well be, but just realize that in 2009 Bethpage will once again put Torrey Pines back on the lower pedestal from where it can look far, far above and only wish it were Bethpage!  ;D

I've been to LaJolla & Torrey Pines in June a few times where I couldn't see the ocean from the golf course - and for multiple consecutive days...

Hopefully the phenomenon of "June Gloom" spares the US Open this year.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would the game suffer if classic courses were no longer used?
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2008, 05:11:14 PM »
Phil -

I too thought it was a good idea ;), but I confess I was being facetious. I can think of legal, tax, business, cultural, administrative and other reasons why it won't work.

The fact remains, however, that if you want a venue severe enough that scores around par will win, there are much better ways to run that test than mucking around with significant historic golf courses.

Bob  

Bob,

I was just responding to it as a business idea.  I think it would be a home run as a money-maker.  The courses would have way more cache than the TPC sites, only one of which really counts for anything.  Who wouldn't want to play on a course that hosts the US Open once every four years?

The problem is the USGA probably can't do it and retain their non-profit status. 

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