[Jay Flemma]

Would Walter Travis beat out Ben Crenshaw?

[Mark Smolens]

Melvyn Morrow is going to be all over you on this one Jay.  Doesn't his grandfather (or is it great grandfather?) deserve at least a place in this discussion?

[Tom Huckaby]

Doesn't it depend on how much weight one gives to "player" and how much to "architect"?

If it's 50/50, I'm with Mark - it's gonna be tough to be Old Tom, although Nicklaus might give him a run.  Palmer must be mentioned as well.

If it's weighted differently then of course it changes, and of course Crenshaw and Travis and a few others would have a chance.

TH

[Jay Flemma]

Hey, nominate all the player architects you like!  Let's make a list:

Now we have OTM, BC, and The Grand Old Man.  Who else?

[Kirk Gill]

I think you have to make a distinction between the player-architect of today, and the player-architect of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, at least in the U.S.  Back in the day, the notion of being a "professional" was distasteful to many. And you could lose your amateur status if you were a professional at "constructing" golf courses. For some like  Tillinghast that wasn't a huge issue. Fownes was a terrific amateur. Hugh Wilson. Charles Blair Macdonald. I could go on.

Fair?

[Kalen Braley]

If JN is included in this criteria, with all due respect to OTM, I think JN wins in a walk.

His only competition being Tiger Woods in a couple of years when his first course is complete.

How can it be any different than this?

[Wayne_Kozun]

If it's weighted differently then of course it changes, and of course Crenshaw and Travis and a few others would have a chance.

Including James Braid who won 5 Open Championships.

[Tom Huckaby]

If JN is included in this criteria, with all due respect to OTM, I think JN wins in a walk.

His only competition being Tiger Woods in a couple of years when his first course is complete.

How can it be any different than this?

Kalen:  again, it's gonna depend on how one weights this.  If it's who is the best player who also did architectural work, well... us modernists would find Nicklaus hard to beat, but Melvyn and others will give good arguments for Old Tom Morris (and rightly so, I think).  And then Palmer must be considered, and James Braid (thanks, Wayne!) and likely a few others.

But if it's who's the best architect who also was a great player, then of course the equation changes, and guys like Crenshaw and Travis and MacDonald and others have a chance.

Right?

TH

[Kalen Braley]

If JN is included in this criteria, with all due respect to OTM, I think JN wins in a walk.

His only competition being Tiger Woods in a couple of years when his first course is complete.

How can it be any different than this?

Kalen:  again, it's gonna depend on how one weights this.  If it's who is the best player who also did architectural work, well... us modernists would find Nicklaus hard to beat, but Melvyn and others will give good arguments for Old Tom Morris (and rightly so, I think).  And then Palmer must be considered, and James Braid (thanks, Wayne!) and likely a few others.

But if it's who's the best architect who also was a great player, then of course the equation changes, and guys like Crenshaw and Travis and MacDonald and others have a chance.

Right?

TH

Tom,

Thats a good distinction...and the assumption I went with was the first one.  A player who also has done architecture.

But I can't see, and my ignorance may be showing brightly thru, how OTM is even in the same league as a Nicklaus.  The way I see it, JN had to compete with all the best players in the world and won 18 majors.  OTM competed againt the best players in the UK and won what??

***  I'm sure the flamming will start and I'm about to get learned ***   

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen - that war has already been fought (as have damn near all others worth fighting).

Those who favor Old Tom did make strong arguments.  But the player more wanted to say was better than Jack was YOUNG Tom.  My bad.

TH

[Chris_Clouser]

I would say either OTM or Braid.  They were both dominant players and both of them put together some excellent courses with portfolios that far out weight JN.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Thanks for the distinction, I think the same applies.

Chris,

I'm not trying to go "Merion" on this thread but is there a link that shows what these guys have done in competition.  I'm really interested to see how even Young Tom would be anywhere in the league of a JN or TW.

Thanks,

KAlen

[Wayne_Kozun]

How is this for criteria - best architect who has won a minimum of two majors?  Then judge them solely on the quality of their courses, not by the fact that Jack won 18 majors so he obviously is much better than Crenshaw who only won 2.

[Jay Flemma]

well I'm still curious whether Travis would win over Crenshaw or not...

[Tom Huckaby]

Wouldn't you go with Travis simply because he did his architectural work without the benefit of a partner?

[Chris_Clouser]

Kalen,

The key to this is the phrase "of his day."  So that means using whatever would be the measuring criteria for success of their day.  For Braid and OTM, that would be the Open Championship of which each won the title multiple times.  I guess for Braid you could argue the US Open, but he never competed in it.  Both of these gentlemen were among the best of their generation, if not the best, player.  They also were among the best, if not the best, architect of their day.  I would say OTM was the best in both areas during his day.  Braid was a top 3 player of his era and probably a top 5 designer from his era.

I can see your point on Nicklaus, except that I think his architectural standing is far below his player standing for his era. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Chris:  I'm with you on that reasoning without a doubt.  The key is indeed "of his day".  Thus no matter how one weights this, if one does believe JN is not one of the superior architects of his day, he will lose.   Well said - thanks!

Kalen, look at it like this:  10 points for player status, 10 points for architect status.  Each not based on all-time standing, but rather how he stood during his own time.  It's hard not to give OTM and Braid each 9s (they did have competition and weren't the absolute best in their times, but were damn good); Jack gets a 10.  Then all it takes is for OTM and Braid to get two more points than Jack in the architect part and they win... many would argue that OTM and Braid were 9s or 10s, and Jack is a 5 at best... Not me, mind you, but I can see the argument...

TH

[Wayne_Kozun]

Both of these gentlemen were among the best of their generation, if not the best, player.  They also were among the best, if not the best, architect of their day.  I would say OTM was the best in both areas during his day.  Braid was a top 3 player of his era and probably a top 5 designer from his era.

I am not saying this to be dissing OTM in any way but who were the other architects of his day?  Who else was designing golf courses in the 1850s which is when he laid out Prestwick? 

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

The key to this is the phrase "of his day."  So that means using whatever would be the measuring criteria for success of their day.  For Braid and OTM, that would be the Open Championship of which each won the title multiple times.  I guess for Braid you could argue the US Open, but he never competed in it.  Both of these gentlemen were among the best of their generation, if not the best, player.  They also were among the best, if not the best, architect of their day.  I would say OTM was the best in both areas during his day.  Braid was a top 3 player of his era and probably a top 5 designer from his era.

I can see your point on Nicklaus, except that I think his architectural standing is far below his player standing for his era. 

Chris,

Fair enough.  Using that criteria, that sounds correct as there will be multiple best player-architects of thier individual day/era.

I still have a hard time seeing how OTM or Young Tom can even be compared to a JN or Arnie.  I did a little bit of looking around and the first open was 8 professionals.  In year 2 it expanded to 8 amateurs and 10 professionals.  The following years were probably similar for when the Toms won the lions share of thier tourneys.  It was likely more equivilant to a club championship in todays terms.  And if thats so I can think of another Tom who won one of those....   

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen - dying!

But I think your point is moot.  That is, it doesn't matter if the events were easier to win in the Braid/OTM era - and it seems impossible to argue against that.  All that matters is whether they were the best of their time.  And it's also hard to argue that if you give a 10 to the best, OTM and Braid were not 9's - in their time.

TH

[Chris_Clouser]

Wayne,

Great question.  There were a lot of little courses popping up everywhere and someone had to be building them.  I would say the primary competition was from Laidlaw Purves (Royal St. Georges fame), Willie Park Sr., Willie Dunn, Allen Robertson (albeit briefly until his death).  If you want to thrown in some smaller players like Charles Hunter, George Morris (Tom's Brother), Mure Ferguson, Horace Hutchinson and John Sutherland, then you have a pretty solid representation of the people that were active during that period.  I think when you also include the influence that Morris had on the next generation along with his standing as the Keeper of the Green at St. Andrews, it is a pretty easy call to say he was the most influential GCA of his generation.

[Dean Paolucci]

Willie Park, Jr should get a nod!

[Phil_the_Author]

You guys seem to have forgotten that old golf pro Donald Ross... and Mr. H.H. Barker...

[Bill_McBride]

Who could doubt that Old Tom Morris was a dominant player, and only Melvyn Morrow knows how many highly rated courses he designed, from Dornoch and Tain to Royal County Down.  My vote goes to Old Tom in a heartbeat if we are talking about dominating golfer AND prolific designer of highly rated golf courses.

[Jay Flemma]

Wouldn't you go with Travis simply because he did his architectural work without the benefit of a partner?

Interesting question.  please teach me, everyone.  How much of Coore and Crenshaw is Crenshaw?  Would it change from course to course?  Are they so much a gestalt creature it is indistinguishable?

I need to play some Travis solo designs.  one of my friends just got into Ekwanok and loves it.  Also, I have friends at Onondaga and one more.

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