[Tom Huckaby]

Have you guys played the hole into the wind?  Totally different strategy then, isn't it?

See, downwind I too have always gone for the green - it's not that hard to actually get on, at least the left side, and well...I just find the shot too fun to resist.  That being said, missing short right is not a happy fate - it's a very tough pitch usually played out of a divot.  But heck, no guts no glory....

Into the wind I can't make it no way no how, so the decision becomes where to try to leave the tee shot.  And I have yet to figure that out really.

In any case I too love this hole - I think it's 2nd only to #6 in my personal faves on the course.

TH

[Sean_A]

I have been following this thread with a certain jump of delight.  Two things really stand out for me.  First, the greens have a lovely mottled colour.  It really reminds me of a proper links.  Secondly, I like how many of the greens just flow into the course (or is it vice versa?).  When I see a pic like the one below it really does intimate to me that golf and how to play it are top of the menu. 


Carry on boys!

Ciao

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - I feel quite confident in saying you would love Pacific Dunes.

Just try not to look at the prices, however.  That might ruin it.

TH

[Tim Pitner]

Sean,

What is suggested but cannot be known through photos is just how incredible the playing conditions are at Pacific Dunes (and indeed at all three Bandon courses).  While it's not linksland per se, Pacific Dunes is no faux links.  The greens aren't fast, but they're firm and very true.  The fairways are tight but a little springy too, just like the Irish links I've played.  And, as you noted, the blending in of the fairways and greens looks tremendous.  The folks (like Tom Jefferson) at Bandon do a fantastic job.  

[Kalen Braley]

Tim,

I'm sorry to say that I don't share the same opinion with you on this hole.  This is one of my favs on the course and absolutly love it.

After first playing this hole I had a different reaction, but when looking at it in retrospect, I was only bit in the ass because I didn't realize how to play it.  It could be the toughest 40 yard chip to a green from a fairway lie that you will ever have.  Even though Tom admitted in Dream Golf that its a bit unfair, that could only be said the 1st time you play it because after that you know better right?

In many ways its similar to the 10th at Riv in strategy:

- Standing on the tee it looks like the play is to go right at the green, but once you get up there its very obvious its not.
- The safe play is indeed out to the left to open up the best angle into the green.
- Driving just short of the green leaves a very difficult approach with little chance for birdie and just hoping to save par.
- Successfully challenging the green on its left side can lead to a very doable birdie if not eagle with a pin on the left.
- Even with a successful layup out to the left, its still a butt puckering wedge approach in missing right, long, or left are all pretty much dead.

I think the hole is brillant and its once again one of those mind game kind of holes.  Your standing on the tee, short par 4, wind behind, and your licking your chops.  Then when you walk off with a double bogey your muttering to yourself.

[Sean_A]

Sean - I feel quite confident in saying you would love Pacific Dunes.

Just try not to look at the prices, however.  That might ruin it.

TH

Tom

I have every intention of visiting Bandon someday, but it is a tough place to get to.  So it could take many a year and a bit of luck.  I don't mind going out of season.  If the place really is a links then it should play superbly and perhaps even better than in the summer.  Besides, I am not the sort who wants to go on a forced march of 54 holes per day - its not my style - so the winter works. 

Tim

It is evident from the pix that the course looks a treat and is often in good nick. 

Ciao

[Ted Kramer]

Have to disagree with Mr. Bert regarding #16.
I think that #16 is the best hole on the course.
I think it is MUCH better than #6.
I don't know if #16 is my favorite, but I do think that it is the best hole at PD.
There is no right way to play it, at least I couldn't find one.
The angles are maddening.
The options from the tee are almost endless.
And i don't mean silly options, there are really a bunch of different ways to attack the hole. And for all the benefits that one strategy might offer, it also brings with it a number of problems. . .

I think that #16 is fantastic.
In my opinion, this is the hole that shows Mr. Doak's skill better than any of the others.
It is the best short par 4 that I've ever played. . . again, I put it waaaay ahead of #6.

-Ted

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean:

The course does play wonderfully year-round, for sure.  And at least for now, prices are still reasonable off-season.  The weather can be trying, but heck it would be nothing you haven't seen even at the worst.

Just don't wait too long.  I do not foresee these prices remaining static.


Ted:  interesting, I love 6.  I can see someone preferring 16, but to put it "waaaaaay ahead of #6", that seems extreme to me.  Is it that you don't like 6, or just really love 16?

TH

[Tim Pitner]

This one has always fallen toward the bottom of my list of holes at Pacific Dunes.  I don't think it is the worst hole on the course (I'm not sure what is) but it is far from the best in my opinion.  If it didn't share short par 4 bragging rights with #6, it might fare better.  As it stands, #6 is so good that it is the one I walk away discussing.  If you've got the game to pull the driver and crush it with accuracy, then you might have an advantage to be gained off the tee.  Otherwise, it is directly to "The Land of 10,000 Divots" for all but the worst struck shots (which could be in a fairway bunker left, a fairway bunker long, or way right left or right (and often lost.) 

The fairway here is something to behold.  It looks like they could host the Olympic Ski Mogul event here.  The green is tricky at best and evil when it rears its ugly head.  It's not very big and it is very difficult to hit with any type of short approach, including the preferred bump and run when the summer wind is blowing over your shoulder.  In reviewing my regular group's scores at Pacific Dunes this evening, I'm surprised to see that this hole plays as the 3rd hardest on the course for us.  I guess we need to practice our short games!

Tim B,

With respect, it sounds like you haven't yet figured out the best way for you to play the hole (I'm not sure I have either).  As Kalen said, the lay-up option to the left of the fairway is a pretty good way to gain a good angle and avoid the hollow, although the pitch to firm ground with trouble left, right and long is a difficult one.  That the hole plays difficultly for your group is testament to its brilliance, IMO. 

[Mike Benham]

The best feature on the 16th is the angle of the green to the fairway.  To have a save approach (assuming you can't reach the green and want a fuller shot), you to need to be left and as close to the shrubs as possible to avoid an approach to a narrow target.

Sean - your views on getting to Bandon are no different then some of us trying to get to certain parts of Scotland ...

[rjsimper]

16 would be better on a course with less play, where the omnipresent threat of finding yourself in a divot in one of the collection areas would not be as great.

[Tim Bert]

Guys - no need to go to attack mode!  I was bound to list one of these holes as one of my lesser favorites eventually. If you guys can't figure out that the real issue is that I just love the other holes too much, then you haven't been reading closely enough!

I think the extreme diverse opinions coming out here are just another sign of the course's greatness. 

Worst and least favorite are all relative terms. As for the comments that I just haven't figured out how to best play the hole - well that could be said for most of the holes out there. Actually, I have a pretty good idea. My execution just stinks.  Such is life for a 10 - 12 handicap.

I'm just enjoying how many strong opinions this one is bringing out.         

[Tim Pitner]

Tim B,

I made the comment about possibly not knowing the best way for you to play the hole because your initial post re: #16 implied that the only option off the tee was to bang driver and hope you don't end up in the divot-filled hollow.  I view the lay-up left option as a very viable way to play the hole so I wondered whether you had given that enough consideration.  I wasn't trying to be an ass. 

[Sean_A]

Do you guys reckon the hole might play better if it were wider?  Clear out the crap around the green and keep the grass short there.  Its hard to tell from the pix.  I can say I don't like the look of the stuff around the green. 

Ciao

[Tom Huckaby]

Do you guys reckon the hole might play better if it were wider?  Clear out the crap around the green and keep the grass short there.  Its hard to tell from the pix.  I can say I don't like the look of the stuff around the green. 

Ciao

No.  I think it works perfectly as it is.  Take out the stuff around the green and it becomes just a brainless bombs away - at least to some extent.  The trouble short right would still exist obviously, but absent danger left it's just too easy of a shot.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

I think the green complex and surrounds are perfectly fine as is being a short hole.

The only thing I would change is the size of the two main collection areas on the right side of the fairway.  As it is now, these two collection areas will funnel into a relativly small spot on each one where you are almost guaranteed a lie in a divot. Perhaps break them up into smaller swales and multiple collection areas so your chance of being in a divot is reduced. 

[Sean_A]

I spose I was thinking of a mega version of some of the greens at Pinehurst as the green seems to have falloffs left and right.  Its dead easy to find oneself going a bit back n' forth on that course even though there "isn't any trouble about".

Ciao

[Tim Bert]

Tim P -

No offense taken to any previous comments.

I don't have the skill to play the "crush the drive" option because I don't have the distance or the accuracy. I was observing that this was likely the preferred approach for skilled players, and Tom H rightfully pointed out that is only viable in the summer.

I'm more in the camp of hybrid off the tee to the land of 10,000 divots (which I also mentioned in my original post) which I think is the appropriate play for me. Actually, I've had the most success here with driver off the tee, which for me gets me further left and deep for a better angle to the hole.

I just think there's way too much else that's cool going on at PacDunes to put this amongst my favorites.

[Ted Kramer]

Tim Bert,

I hope my post wasn't read as an "attack mode" response.
It certainly wasn't meant that way.
This thread has been one of my all time GCA favorites and your opinions are a big part of what makes it so much fun to read. . .

Huck,

I'm not in love with #6.
Seems too harsh to me.
Too little room to manuever the 2nd shot.
It is very "all or nothing" and I don't think I love many holes like that.
I'm not sure what you can do with your drive on #6 to make the second shot more playable.

Bolied down, I see #6 as:
drive it somewhere right of the green, hit a wedge, and hope.

And I see #16 on the very opposite end of that spectrum.

-Ted

[Tom Huckaby]

Ted:

Excellent, much appreciated.

I do disagree pretty much completely, however.  I see as many options and ways to play 6 as I do 16, if not more. 

Funny how golf holes can be seen so differently. 

TH

[Kalen Braley]

I'm curious.

For those who have played 16 in both prevailing winds, which one would be your preference.  Downwind in summer, or a mostly headwind coming out of the right in the winter?

I'm thinking downwind because in the winter time if you come up short and go down into the PD "valley of sin", then it won't be good times.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:

I'd say it's quite a bit easier downwind.  Oh, the green does get tough to hold, for sure.... but with any sort of a strong drive you have a pretty darn short shot in.  Into the wind it can get scary hard just because it plays so much longer.  Like Charlie said:  Driver-6iron and then blown into the gorse.

[Tom Huckaby]

I'd agree with that, Charlie - every hole is gonna be easier downwind just because it will play so much shorter and the ball will generally go straighter as well.  Into the wind anything can happen.

Back when we were talking about 14, I thought that might play tougher downwind given it's so tough to stop the ball on the green downwind... but rethinking that, heck the universe of outcomes into the wind is MASSIVE there also... so again, it's likely tougher into the wind even there.  That's just a particularly hard downwind shot, that's all.  As is the pitch into 16, and into 6 - downwind.  But each can be made so short so as to negate the stopping difficulty.

TH

[Doug Wright]

I think 16 is a fine hole. It comes at a point in the round where you may be either trying to win a match or post a score, and that adds to the challenge of the second shot, which I've found is one of those that requires commitment or you pay the price--the green is the only option for a decent chance at par or better since the bunker or the rightside pit are dead. Note that I've only played the hole into the winter wind, so I'm approaching from a ways back. Having to hit a properly judged and struck iron into that breeze is no bargain!   The tee shot is only somewhat challenging by contrast--I've hit into the divot filled mine field most times. I also think the green is more difficult than it looks; being above the hole can be tough in some parts of the green.

[Kalen Braley]

I think there is 1 hole at PD that most would likely prefer into the wind and that is #11.  With an elevated green, a nasty bunker short, and long shaggy stuff long, I think that hole likely plays easier into the wind. Its short enough where even a average-to-short knocker like me can still hit 7 iron into that green with the prevailing summer wind.

Holding that green playing it downwind would take a minor miracle and god forbid they ever used a red pin with the prevailing winter wind.   

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