A Fan's Photo Tribute to Pacific Dunes - 18th hole commentary now in progress

[Kalen Braley]

I now realize I have one and only one thing in terms of scoreboard over Mr. Huckaby when it comes to golf.

I've played that hole once, downwind, and am 1 for 1.  Stuck a wedge to pin high about 10 feet and nailed the birdie putt!!  How bout them apples Huck...   

P.S. I can still recall very well my thoughts when first seeing that cavernous bunker right of the green.  I though holy hell what do you do if you get in that thing!!!

[Richard Boult]

Day 1 (tailwind) - gap wedge: right at pin, landed green and rolled off to road behind (no deer observed)
Day 2 (tailwind) - sand wedge: right at pin, landed green and rolled off to road behind (no deer observed)
Next trip (tailwind) - lob wedge: right at pin, land short of green and roll to within 3 feet of pin (observe deer after making birdie and leaving green)

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen, you own me.

Peter, the Emperor's been my mentor for too many years as it is.

 

[Wyatt Halliday]

I think there may be something to this downwind short iron observation.

Day 1 (headwind) - 4iron hole high on the green
Day 2 (Tailwind) - SW.......see Art Fuller's response

Agreed on the bunker right, absolutely frightening.

[Stan Dodd]

Last time I played into a STRONG headwind hit 4 iron about 10 feet off the ground didn't reach green, Texas wedge for 2!  It was blowing so hard I couldn't get a ball to stay on a tee.

[Ed Oden]

The 14th in sun...

...and in fog.


The 14th is one of my favorites.  Its one of the most natural holes I have ever seen.  Has anyone played to a back left pin?  What are the toughest pin placements?

Ed

[Tom_Doak]

Ed:

14 is actually the LEAST natural hole on the course.  All that was there when we started was a severe crest of dunes ... we knocked the dune down about ten feet, then had to haul a bunch more sand in from behind the tee to build up the left side to give some chance of recovery from there.  It was either that, or play out into the field to the left which is now #6 at Old Macdonald.

We did make a dip in the approach short of the green so you could try to land it there when playing downwind ... play a low punch shot into the dip instead of flying the wedge to the front of the green.  It's hard to pull off but I've done it once or twice ... you don't want to leave it short and give yourself the uphill downwind chip shot.

[Ed Oden]

Ed:

14 is actually the LEAST natural hole on the course. 

Tom, I'm not sure whether that is incontrovertable evidence of (a) your supreme skills, (b) my ignorance or (c) both.

[Tim Bert]

The 15th is a par 5
539 from the black tee
504 from the green tee

The is the first hole on the way in that loses site of the ocean.  I think it serves as a nice transitional hole to the finish that follows.  This hole plays mostly downwind in the summer (the wind may be coming at a slight cross angle.)  The hole is easily reachable with two well struk shots that avoid trouble in these conditions.  The bunkers on the right side of the fairway will collect tee shots with too much on them.  This includes clubs less than driver when the wind is blowing and the fairway is running fast (which is always when I've been there.)  These bunkers are still better than the alternate fate of losing a ball in the gorse by hitting the tee shot too far left.  The 2nd shot needs to clear the cross bunker, which is much farther away from the green than it first appears.  If it does so, there is a good chance it will run up near the green. 

There is not a bunker to be found around the green.  The green really needs no defense beyond what is currently provided.  The surrounds fall away from the green on all sides, except for directly beyond where there is actually a little ramp that can run a ball back onto the putting surface.  The single mound near the front right entrance to the green can complicate things quite a bit.  As I mentioned on a previous post, I've been next to this green in two and walked away with an eight on the scorecard.  It's not a great place to yip the chips.

From the tee.  You can see the bunkers on the right (just in front of the gorse) that like to collect tee shots.


A wide view from the fairway.  The right bunkers are better viewed in this photo.


Another view of the approach


Yet another view of the approach.  From this angle, the final bunker still looks much closer to the green than it really is


From this view of the final bunker you can see just how much room there is between the bunker and the green.  This photo also provides a decent look at the knob guarding the front right approach.


A shot from behind the green.


Another view from a slightly different angle


Finally, from the long grass behind the green

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

The gorse bushes in the left foreground of your first photo are mostly gone now ... we have cleaned out probably 60% of the gorse between this hole and #6 at Old Macdonald, which plays parallel with this hole in the opposite direction.  We did still keep some gorse tight to the landing area on the left, so you still have to flirt with going in the gorse if you're trying to get home in two, but there is more leeway for short hitters now.

[Bob Jenkins]

Tim,

My first recollection of 15 is that standing on the tee, there seems to be plenty of room out there so "let it fly", especially if the wind is cooperating. It is easy to try to open up too much and end up in trouble, which for me, is usually to the left in those circumstances (unlike you, I am a righty).

It is one of those great little par 5s that you feel you should dominate but it just does not happen!I think that is because, on the second shot, assuming a good drive, it seems too easy to get there and so you become careless. The lack of greenside bunkers and the incline up to the green make it look simple but as with most holes on this course, it is far to easy to mess up.

Love it and look forward to going again.

Thanks again for all of this.

Bob J

[Jeff Doerr]

What I love about 15 is the way it seduces you when you have a tail wind. You try to get a little extra off the tee and the landing area narrows dangerously at just the right point. So, now you've busted a drive and have a chance to reach in two. The hole looks wide open and inviting. The problem is the green accepts almost no run up shots. Most of us right handers miss right on a long approach shot which leaves you on the bad side of the knob. At that point you wish you had the Phil flop shot in your bag -- so you end up making bogey or worse from 20 yards short of the green. The better play is to miss far left and then you can have a half wedge to a much more receptive green. At this point I've always struggled a bit as I find this green pretty simple, but hard to read exacly what a putt will do. In the end, I feel like birdie should be pretty easy if you execute your shots, but the hole seems to get the better of me most of the time.

[Joe Bentham]

A couple of random thoughts on 15:
The gorse that use to be behind the fairway bunkering on the right was removed 2 seasons ago, and IMO weakened the hole a bit.  It use to be if you bailed a little right with your tee shot your reward was a blind shot over bunker and gorse.  Now you can hit it anywhere in the fairway and still see the green.

The 'hump' on the short right side of green might be the best green side hazard on the course.  The options you have from there present some of the difficulty.  And most players there in two think they should get up and down easily, and the space the 'up' part.

Standing on the green looking back down the fairway you can't see any of the bunkers, they disappear.  A really neat affect that adds to the frustration level for golfers on this hole.  Leaving the green looking back down the fairway, golfers can't help but think they should have made a better number.

[Tom_Doak]

Either this thread is running out of steam, or else the last few holes are not the most compelling on the course.  I guess we'll find out which it is when we get to #16. 

About the only thing I have to add on this hole is that it was the hole Mr. Keiser was most worried about being up to class, from the time we started the project.  I thought that was weird, because he always said "Foxy" was his favorite hole in the world and I always thought of this green as "Foxy" twisted toward the line of play ...

The green was indeed a natural plateau; the plateau was just three feet higher then than it is today.  (If you walk off the back of the green, when you walk up to the third deck in the rough, that was the original elevation of the whole thing.)  We couldn't leave it that high because nobody would have ever played a run-up.  Incidentally, I've seen a run-up work ... the best shot I saw in the Curtis Cup was hit by one of the English girls in the singles matches, a 4-wood from about 250 yards that bounced just short of the plateau and ran up to ten feet, which she needed to keep the match going.

[Tim Bert]

The thread runs out of steam every weekend, which is why I slowed down the pace a bit recently.  When I post a hole on Friday and one on Sunday, no one has time to comment on the one posted Friday.  This weekend was likely compounded with the holiday.  I'll probably post #16 Monday evening as the 4th of July crowd has a chance to trickle back in with commentary.

[Phil McDade]

Tom:

I'll add one more thought/question since 3, 12, and 15 have now been profiled.

A fellow GCA poster who has played PD suggested to me that 3, 12 and 15 were basically used as the part of the routing that took golfers from the dunesy area of (most of) the front nine (and the latter parts of the back nine), to the coastal holes, notably the 4th and 13th. He described the area of these three par 5s as a broad plain, that had to be traversed as kind of a transition zone from the more visually arresting parts of the course.

Is that a fair characterization of the land for those three holes? Could the land have been used in other ways? The holes seem, from the pictures, as perhaps wider than several other holes.

[Tom Jefferson]

It is not uncommon at all for me (and others I play with) to run, or bump, the ball onto the green, at least when the cup is located in the front and the wind is at our back.

I love playing into this green, and what I most want to avoid is leaving the ball right of the green.  From there the play is nearly always a putter, especially if the cup is in the front.  What you must avoid doing is playing back and forth from one side to the other. 

Playing a second into the wind holds the challenge of clearing the lefthand fairway bunker, forcing play right, which is not the preferred side to play into the green from.

Good hole, fun, one that you can take for granted and get slapped for........underrated, IMO.

Tom........I saw that same Curtis Cup play as you, and one other time an American player from about 50 yards played a wedge to a front cup and chunked it, and lost the hole.

[Tim Bert]

#16 is a par 4
338 from the black tee and the green tee

This one has always fallen toward the bottom of my list of holes at Pacific Dunes.  I don't think it is the worst hole on the course (I'm not sure what is) but it is far from the best in my opinion.  If it didn't share short par 4 bragging rights with #6, it might fare better.  As it stands, #6 is so good that it is the one I walk away discussing.  If you've got the game to pull the driver and crush it with accuracy, then you might have an advantage to be gained off the tee.  Otherwise, it is directly to "The Land of 10,000 Divots" for all but the worst struck shots (which could be in a fairway bunker left, a fairway bunker long, or way right left or right (and often lost.) 

The fairway here is something to behold.  It looks like they could host the Olympic Ski Mogul event here.  The green is tricky at best and evil when it rears its ugly head.  It's not very big and it is very difficult to hit with any type of short approach, including the preferred bump and run when the summer wind is blowing over your shoulder.  In reviewing my regular group's scores at Pacific Dunes this evening, I'm surprised to see that this hole plays as the 3rd hardest on the course for us.  I guess we need to practice our short games!

From the tee


A typical view of the approach when hitting a hybrid or fairway wood from the tee


A personal favorite view of this hole from the distant left side of the hole


One more view of the approach in the shadows and the dangerous recovery that awaits if you miss the green to the right on the approach (this area on the right side is also where drives that fall just short of the target will collect.)


A look at the green (and the wild fairway in the background)


A view from behind the hole.  Here you can see the fall-off behind the green and another angle of the nasty right-side recovery shot

[Mike Benham]

Were these two photos taken at the same time?  The trees visible in the first photo seem to be missing in the second photo, or is that an illusion?

[Joe Bentham]

look closer they are still there.....

[Tim Bert]

I think the issue is that the trees in the first photo look closer to the green than they really are.  They are the same trees that appear to be well in the distance in the second photo - you can tell they are the same if you look at how there are two closely grouped and a bit removed from the others (and also look at the tree-top pattern.)  Many of these photos were taken at different times, but the two you asked about were indeed taken on the same day.

[Pete_Pittock]

Tim,
Love the photo from the left bunker!
Like #6 this hole utilizes the maximum length allowed between two land features at the tee and the green. The premium drive at the 6th must challenge the hillside and right side bunker to have the best angle for the green. At the 16th your challenge is to hit the ball as close to the bushes on the left side to get the best angle. At the 6th a miss brings the large front bunker into play, here a miss right brings the hillside into play. On both holes the green is angled. Almost mirror image startegy. 

[John Kirk]

Even though it is bad strategy, I usually try to drive the green, and usually end up right of the green with a 30-50 yard pitch from well below the hole in deep grass.  I make 4 about 2/3 of the time from there.

I've heard the best way to drive the green is with a 1-iron or 3-wood directly over the corner bunker.  Catch the exact right set of bounces and it will roll onto the green.

I have made birdie with 5-wood to left side, pitching wedge at the flag.  I don't go that way very often.  I guess it's because I'm a little worried about pulling one too far left.

Tricky green, tough greenside bunker.  Not an easy hole.

Last thought:  The numerous small depressions where balls collect in the fairway are littered with divots.  In my opinion, it is a bit too easy to land in a divot on this hole.

[Richard Boult]

I'm with Kirk, in my 2 rounds here, I've gone for the green.  Hit to 12 feet in my 1st round, long grass right on my 2nd. Birdied 1st round, doubled second.  I'm thinking I'll hit my hybrid off the tee next time. Good risk reward hole for long drives.

[Robert Emmons]

One of my favorite holes....made me think and the fairway reminded me of Highland links...RHE