A Fan's Photo Tribute to Pacific Dunes - 18th hole commentary now in progress

[Tim Bert]

Dan -

I'm interested to hear Tom's comments about the green site as well.  Ran's comments on his course review indicate that the green area looked pretty much as it exists today.  I'd love to hear expanded commentary on what was created.

From Ran's review - "Though pine trees had to be cleared across the entire fairway, all the land forms around the green complex were there and Doak recognized early on the site's potential."

[Joe Bentham]

The first time I played it, the furry bumps well short of the actual green didn't really catch my eye.  I've gotten used to them, though I won't say I love them.  I think they make for some interesting recovery shots if the approach isn't well-played.  I've seen balls bounce off of them in many directions (including a helpful forward if you catch the correct part of the back side) off of these humps.  I've also seen the ball get stuck in the long grass on them.  I think I might enjoy them even more if the grass on them were maintained at fairway levels, though I suppose it wouldn't provide the raw, natural feel that currently exists.

The 'Furry Bumps', as you call them, really make the hole for me.  The handicapped golfer, even after placing his drive in the left half of the fairway, is faced with a longer iron into this green.  The placement of the 'FBs' trick the golfer into thinking he should take plenty of club to carry the trouble, dismissing the fact that said club has very little chance of holding the green downwind.  The play is something that lands between the back edge of the 'FBs' and the front edge of the green, regardless of where the pin is.  And IMO for many the play is Driver, wedge, wedge regardless of wind direction or pin position.  If the 'FBs' where maintained at fairway levels then they wouldn't present such a hazard (both visually and literally), and the hole would lose much of the risk/reward factor.
I will also say that this hole is hands down the hardest on the course day in and day out.  When its downish wind guys make big numbers missing the tee ball right and missing their second shots into the green either short, long or in a bunker.  When its into the wind making the fairway feels like an accomplishment, and many times the layup is with a fairway wood. 
How many other links courses have a hole that is the hardest on the course, regardless of wind direction?

[Jim Adkisson]

The feature I like best about the 7th is the shaved fringe areas around the green...Short left contours take you into the deep bunkers, anything short and right takes you to the collection areas for a tough pitch, run-up, texas wedge...For a back pin, I have tried to run into the long mound and have it roll off to the left and back onto the green...unfortunately, my considerate lack of skill got me on the right side of the mound and off to an impossible position to the right of this green...

Having played this hole with both head and tail winds, it is a tricky green whether playing a long club over the Fuzzy Bumps downwind or a short running wedge from just short of the bumps as a third shot into the wind...

Center of the green with correct depth of shot is definately the best target on this green...

[Richard Boult]

Quite simply, I found this hole to be the most intimidating visually from both the tee and approach.

[David Botimer]

One of my favorites.  I think it is interesting to compare this one to the 14th on BT.  Both have small difficult greens.  This hole is superior because the advantage of a tee ball to the right is huge because of the shape of the green and the giant bunker on the left. Nonetheless, many big numbers on this hole.

If you are trying to compare 14 BT to a hole on PD, 16 is the comparison.

[Tim Bert]

Not sure if Huckaby doesn't have an opinion on #7 or if he just didn't notice the update.  Since he missed #4 last Monday and then complained about it after the fact, I thought I'd allow him ample time for commentary.

If #7 doesn't generate any more in-depth discussion today, then I'll post #8 tonight.  If the conversation picks up, then I'll hold off on #8 until Wednesday.

[Tom Huckaby]

Not sure if Huckaby doesn't have an opinion on #7 or if he just didn't notice the update.  Since he missed #4 last Monday and then complained about it after the fact, I thought I'd allow him ample time for commentary.

If #7 doesn't generate any more in-depth discussion today, then I'll post #8 tonight.  If the conversation picks up, then I'll hold off on #8 until Wednesday.

Tim - you surely do NOT have to wait for me for any of this.  I was bummed I missed #4 because I felt like I had something to say about it.  I have little to add about 7.  Great hole, tough hole, I prefer 6. 

TH

[Tim Bert]

#8 is a par 4.
400 yards from the black tees
369 from the green tees

This hole got sort of lost in the shuffle for me the first trip out to Oregon.  Let's face it - it would be tough for almost any hole to immediately follow #6 and #7 in this line-up.  I didn't dislike it, but it felt less spectacular than many of the others on the course.  In 2003, it was unofficially tagged as my least favorite hole on the best course I had ever played.  I always try to keep an open mind on replays, and this hole has grown on me with each subsequent play.

The tee shot is probably still pretty far down on my list when compared to all the driving holes on the course, but the green complex is simply magnificent.  There are few shots more thrilling to me than an apporached that is intentionally aimed away from the hole (or even off the green) with the intent that said shot will end up much closer to the hole.  Enter the feeding area off the right side of #8.  You can learn about it by accident, but once you understand it as a viable option to attack a right-side pin it becomes a great play.  I also enjoy the bunkering around the green, both the one guarding the front as well as the one in the back left, which allows the golfer to putt out given the right lie.  If all this weren't enough, the false front on the left side makes approaches even more befuddling!

The 8th tee shot.  Perhaps not as thrilling as the previous tee shots on this nine, but the best is yet to come on this hole...


A wide view of the fairway


The approach in the fog


And the approach with no fog


A couple views of the wonderful green




And one final view of the 8th green with the 9th hole "wall of death" guarding the fairway in background.  The part of the green in the foreground of this picture is the right side where things funnel to the hole.  The front and rear bunkers (on the left and right sides of this picture) are barely visible from this angle.
   

[Ari Techner]

I love this hole for the subtlety of the drive and the green complex.  At first glance the drive seems pretty simple but the more you play the hole the more you realize that the tee points you to the right towards the bunkers (in play into the wind for sure) and the trees.  There is a ton of room on the left but the hole just seems to point people away from that side.  I enjoy the challenge of trying to hit shots that feel uncomfortable to me visually and the drive down the left side of this hole is a great example of that shot.  The hole is also pinched on the left side by the dune at about 250y and the treeline that cuts in at about 100y.  Depending on the wind either can present a hazard to the player who takes the correct line off the tee. 
The green complex is simply one of the finest anywhere.  From the right side half punchbowl of sorts to the complete fall away of the left side this green is genius.  Every pin placement presents a completely different challenge.  Weather its is trying to judge the bounce and pin placement to the blind or semi blind right side, trying to find a way to thread the ball between the nasty front middle bunker and the back bunker when the pin is in the middle of the green or trying to stop the ball on the small left area with fall away on all sides.  Much like most of the holes here you really need to play this hole a bunch of times in different winds and especially different pin placements to really appreciate it.  Often overlooked on the first or second play, over time this has become one of my favorite holes on the course. 

[Carl Rogers]

At the Bay of Dreams in January 06, Tom told me that the 8th at PD was his favorite hole.

[Tom Huckaby]

Put me down with Ari on this.  I absolutely love 8, and some of it is because one really does have a "whew" drive... that is, in the flow of things, you've come off two ball-busters in 6 and 7 and another right then would be overkill.  One stands on 6 tee and thinks "I can hit it anywhere".... but Ari's correct also, the tee does point you too far right... and the small temptation is also to go right, to shorten the hole a little... in any case I find it to be just as Ari says - there's more going on than appears.

And then the green.. so dominated by one smallish bunker... with so many ways to tackle it... I find it to be absolute brilliance.

8 is subtle and one's love for it grows over time.  I know it's worked that way for me.

TH

[Tom Jefferson]

IMO, the play into a true front cup setting on 8, with windy conditions,  is one of the most demanding, fun, and potentially satisfying shots at the resort.  That location is essentially crowned in all 4 directions.........left and right the ball trickles into bunkers, left short the ball returns to the fairway, and safely played long one is left with a putt back up to the crown.....it just doesn't get much better!

Tom

[Joe Bentham]

The front left pin on 8 is one of the toughest pins on the resort if your trying to get it close AND keep it on the green.  The leave to that pin is short of the green, putting up the false front.  The reason its hard is because people can't undertand the sense in not taking enough club to get to the green...

[Nyk Pike]

Great hole that I always enjoyed as a breather hole. After the demanding 7th and the fear of the drive coming on 9, this is a fun hole. The front left pin is one of the hardest to get near and be on the putting surface. I always just played to just short of the green whenever the pin was cut in the front. This lead to many a birdie from off the green. The punchbowl in the back of the green is fun as all get out for putting options.

I miss the giant tree that stood left of the green. It only lasted until March of 2002 but it is forever etched in my memory. The branches covered part of the leftside of the green and if your ball made it into the rear portion of the left greenside bunker you had to hit through a kitchen window to get on the green. I know many others on here would not agree that a tree is a good design element but to me it was. It also blocked shots to the green when we would play cross country golf from lower 9 green to 8 green.

Thanks again for the photos Tim. I never took enough in my years there.

[Matt MacIver]

#8 is a favorite of mine, as I was both lucky enough to find the greenside bunker and use need that right side bank.  Instant classic. 

[Bob Jenkins]

Tim,

I agree that this hole grows on you. When you first look it seems rather blah but it definitely is not. I recall the first time I played it and faded, unintentionally, my approach to the right of the bunker, thinking I was going to be in trouble and have the ball role back down so I would need to clear the bunker on a pitch shot. Luckily learned that the feeding area to the right could work to your advantage. You would not know that from the fairway. When the pin is left front, it is best to putt from off the fairway if necessary and clearly a lot better than having a downhiller.

Thanks for this thread. It is great.

Bob

[Doug Wright]

I echo what's been said above. This hole does grow on you with repeat plays. The 2d shot into #8 with a right pin is one of the most fun shots I've had anywhere. Nearly every time I've played the hole the pin was tucked behind the front right bunker. Fortunately, the first round there I was with a caddie who told me to miss the green right and watch what happens. I did this and the ball fed off the greenside right slope right to the hole. Very cool, and emblematic of the great things one can do on the ground at Pacific Dunes.
 

[Tim Bert]

The 9th hole is a par 4 (with two greens - an "upper" and "lower")
406 from the black tee
379 from the green tee
Not certain if those scorecard yardages are to the upper or lower green.

In another recent thread, Tom Doak declared this amongst his favorite tee shots of all his courses.  Wow.  Enough said.

Following my second trip to Bandon in 2005, this hole received my "least favorite hole on the course" award.  On that trip, I played the hole to even par in 4 rounds (one birdie, one bogey) and it just didn't seem to have any defense.  It mostly played to the lower green that trip, and in the summer wind to the lower tee if you are striking the tee ball well you just feel like you can stand up on the tee and pound the ball right down to the front of the green inside 50 yards.  Fortunately for me in 2007 we played to the upper green a bit more, I hit one poorly struck tee shot into the "wall of death", and I played the hole a little bit worse.  Now I can appreciate what I did in 2005, and I look forward to more attempts at this hole.  It's still toward the bottom of the list for me, but if you haven't figured out how much I love ever hole at this course yet you haven't been paying close attention.

The fairway is blind from the tee.  All one sees is the giant diagonal dune that guards the fairway.  You don't need to cut off quite as much as you think you need to to go for the lower green.  The lower fairway serves as a giant bowl and tee shots that stray a bit right as long as they are generall on the right path will find themselves well down the extremely bumpy fairway.  When the pin is in the upper green, you must aim much further right than feels comfortable on the first play if you want a good line of sight to the green.  You can still play the hole from the lower fairway, but that leaves the dreaded blind approach following a blind tee shot.  Not the preferable route on this hole.

It's not hard for this hole to get lost in the mix given the holes it follows and the two seaside par 3s to follow.

The tee shot and the "wall of death"


The fairway pops into view after making the trek up and over the wall.


A wide view of the entire fairway, with both the upper and lower greens in view


Thanks to Scott Weersing for this terrific photo of the approach to the lower green


A view of the approach to the upper, taken from just off the 6th tee


Another view of the approach to the upper


The upper green


The lower green


Looking back on the fairway from the 9th lower green - look at the movement in the fairway!

[Tom_Doak]

There are a lot of things I love about this particular hole.  I would not be likely to nominate it as one of the BEST holes on the course, but nevertheless it is one of my FAVORITE holes on the course.

I love the tee shot because it is two very different tee shots to the same fairway ... as opposed to many split fairway holes which offer the same tee shot to two different ones.  If the lower green is in play, you're trying to hit a big rope hook like on the tenth at Augusta and get on down there; but if the upper green is in use, you want to hit a fade or something so you WON'T get down there and have a blind approach up the hill.

I love the lower green with that big hump in it.  Mr. Keiser never would have allowed me to build a green with such a contour, except I managed to convince him that it would only get used a small percentage of the time.

I love that little bunker in front of the lower green with the small gorse bush on top of it, so you might have to play the bunker shot over the gorse ... don't fluff that one!

I love the fact that the back tee, the fairway landing area, and the upper green are all 137 feet above sea level, even though no one would ever think of it as flat.

But, funnily enough, this isn't a hole that was obvious to me on the topo maps at first look.  In fact, on my original drawing, the tenth hole was a short par-4, and it was only after I got to Bandon that I discovered David Kidd had used some of that ground for Bandon Dunes ... so the only way I could use the green site for #10 was to come diagonally across the tops of the dunes from this direction with #9.  That was also the day I realized Pacific Dunes would probably wind up with back-to-back par-3 holes, even though it took some time before Mike K. was comfortable with it.

[Tim Bert]

Tom

How strongly would you have pushed for back-to-back 3s if CPC hadn't existed down the coast?  Would Mike Keiser have approved?

[Matt MacIver]

What's the approximate %age of usage for each green? 

Does it change seasonally? 

I played back-to-back days in June and played the lower green both times, so I haven't seen the upper. 

I was happy to have what I felt was a "breather" hole to finish the front 9, as with the lower green and downhill slope I felt I could hit just a long iron and get some roll out of it, and the wind wasn't that much of a factor down in that hollow.  But if "they" say the toughest shot in golf is a half-pitch, it's even tougher on a down slope!

[Michael Dugger]

The greens are changed fairly frequently.  Not necessarily daily but close.

ONe of my favorite holes too.  Simply awesome.  You've played nothing like the tee shot on #9 in your life!

[Kalen Braley]

I fully agree with the sentiments on the 9th hole.

The tee shot is spectacular and one of the finest on the course and when it plays to the lower green, it certainly brings in a bite off as much as you can chew component to the tee shot.

And to boot, even hitting a long bomb down there gurantees you nothing because you still can't hold that green with the prevailing summer wind and undulations-a-plenty with a wedge in hand.  After screwing up my drive and going to the right I hit a layup of sorts and was left with a 70 yard chip in that I had no clue how to even get on the green....that in my book is genius.  So I guessed, did a bump and run and got lucky to save the par.

For those who have played it multiple times, whats your preference, the upper green or lower one?  I took a quick look in that direction after my horiffic sliced drive but wouldn't even begin to speculate.

[Tim Bert]

Kalen,

I prefer the lower green to the upper green in a strict comparison of the greens.  I, however, prefer playing the hole to the upper green if that makes sense.

[Tom_Doak]

They use the upper green two days and then the lower green two days.  As I understand it, so many players would play Pacific on day 1 and 3 of their trip (or 2 and 4), and wound up rotating back to the same green again, they decided more people would get to play both if they did it this way.  If you play Pacific two days straight, you've got a 50/50 chance of playing the same green again.

If you play it three days straight you will be sure to see both of them.