A Fan's Photo Tribute to Pacific Dunes - 18th hole commentary now in progress

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

I agree that the hole is more interesting downwind. I like the fact that it makes gorillas truly think about what club to hit from the tee. With a strong wind behind, the big hitter actually has to consider leaving a wood in the bag because of the severity encountered by hitting it past the green right.

To most that subscribe to the bomb and gauge gameplan it is difficult to convince them to grab an iron on the tee of a short par 4.

WH

Right on!  Hadn't thought of that also and you're right... in a downwind that's enough for short-knocker me to get it close to the green, truly long hitters would need to hit iron because long is wrong for sure.  And getting them to do that would take mental toughness for sure.... Add this to reasons for the hole's greatness!

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Is long really wrong though in a winter wind?

Its seems like it would be an acceptable miss because you are chipping back up the hill into the wind.  Sure there is the danger of not reaching the green but it kinda takes going long into that bunker out of play.

I would also think I would prefer chipping on to the green from long as opposed to being 70 yards short of the green and trying to hold it downwind which has got to be just about impossible.

Kalen

[Tom Huckaby]

Is long really wrong though in a winter wind?

Its seems like it would be an acceptable miss because you are chipping back up the hill into the wind.  Sure there is the danger of not reaching the green but it kinda takes going long into that bunker out of play.

I would also think I would prefer chipping on to the green from long as opposed to being 70 yards short of the green and trying to hold it downwind which has got to be just about impossible.

Kalen

Short and to the right is better than long - in fact that's optimal.  Short and to the left is not.  And as discussed before, long and down in the valley to the right is never a happy place.  From there, going back over the green and in the bunker is absolutely NOT out of play... wow I have seen it done numerous times.

 SO... in the end I do think long is wrong in general.  It's not a good miss.  It's a better miss than short and left, true.  But it's not somewhere you want to default to.  Thus the choice for the big bombers - the much better miss is short and right.

TH

[Doug Wright]

My favorite hole on the course. I think #16 is less about options than execution so I prefer #6. On #6 you have club selection options off the tee and then a myriad of options for the second shot if you hit it right (and left is dead).

I've only played the hole downwind.  After reading on here about Tommy Naccarato's strategy for playing the hole (hit it into the left greenside bunker on purpose and then see what you can do), I consciously hit my drive into that bunker the second time around PD. Try it (at least once)--it's a challenge worth seeking out!

[Patrick Glynn]

Thanks again for all the posts & pics Tim. Getting to read all our responsese & also the man himself, Tom Doak - pretty cool IMHO.

Going against the crowd a little here - I think 6 is a good short par 4, but I would not be writing home about it. I guess I have only played it in one wind, and its just drive out the right, and wedge onto the green. I am used to playing links golf so it holds no huge challenge for me. I did like the fact that I (stupidly) played down the left, to the fairway that you can see, and it was only when a playing partner sliced on WAY right that I realised that that was probably the best angle into the green!

[Michael Dugger]

The 6th is one of those short (which should mean easy) holes which can totally piss you off.

And that's what makes it so great.

I've been in that wretched greenside bunker once and hit probably a 1 in 50 shot out and held the green.

But usually that is utter hell down there.

You really need to rip it over the fairway bunker and approach from the right.  I've even been near the 9th tee and it's just fine over there.  Hell, you could approach from the 9th fairway even!

What is difficult to accept is perhaps not going for the green if you end up driving out to the left. 

But what I love seeing is my playing companions go back and forth across the green.  It's painful to watch but somehow gratifying.  It's like "there you have it, Tom got 'em!!!"

[Tom_Doak]

I mentioned it on GCA once before, but the most amazing thing to me about the Curtis Cup was watching how easy the sixth hole was for the girls.  Absent any temptation to drive the green, it was a simple driver and 75-yard wedge for all of them.  I watched four singles matches go through and saw four 3's, three 4's and a 5.

Now a question:  when we were building the hole I knew that a lot of players would hit driver but hedge to the right, so I put a bunker in for bad shots to the right, about 40-50 yards from the green.  I figured only a really good player could reach it, and if he hit a shot that bad, he deserved the 40-yard bunker shot from hell.

Has anyone ever been in that bunker?

[Matt OBrien]

I believe one of the guys in our group was in that bunker and it wasnt fun for him.

[Jon Nolan]

I've been in that bunker.  The smart play for a guy of my meager talents is to forget about trying to reach the green, get yourself just out and play up for a possible one-putt par but more likely a deserved bogey.

A better sand player might go for it but with all the danger behind that green it's a non-starter of an idea for me.

Great hole.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom D - the way the Curtis Cup gals played it was what I was alluding to earlier in the thread - it certainly can be played very simply and easily if one either doesn't have the temptation to get on or close to the green or manages to avoid it.  Oh it still takes fine execution, at least on the approach - and those gals are good - but the choices are pretty simple.  What's cool is the temptation is there for a lot of other players... thus the quandaries.

And yes, I too have been in that bunker - a driver meant to be just short of the green that was pushed.  And "sand shot from hell" describes that adequately.   

TH

[Mike Benham]

... but the most amazing thing to me about the Curtis Cup was watching how easy the sixth hole was for the girls.  Absent any temptation to drive the green, it was a simple driver and 75-yard wedge for all of them.  I watched four singles matches go through and saw four 3's, three 4's and a 5.

Thank you ...

[Andy Hodson]

Huck,

You and I discussed the 6th a few years back in here. And I'm in complete agreement that it is the best short 4 I have ever played, and one of my favorite holes overall.

I look forward on my next trip to Bandon to playing BT, and Old Mac if open.

But I really look forward to standing on the tee of #6PD, and trying to play this hole correctly. I think I would rather make 4 on this hole by executing the correct shots, than make 3 from the right bunkers (as I nearly did the first attempt here). That to me means its a great hole.

[Tom Huckaby]

But Mike my friend, by that simple "thank you" are you implying that the temptation never exists?

It does, believe me.

It does for the recreational player who can hit a ball over 260 yards - which is all it takes to get in a great position to make birdie or even eagle.

So sure, it didn't for these ladies - who remember, played it INTO THE WIND - but I'd love to hear stories about what happened during the various high-level college tournaments that have been played there.

If they universally laid up, I will give up and say the temptation is not a relevant factor in high-level play.  But even then remember it sure as heck does exist for a large number of resort players whose egos overextend their games... and hmmmm... isn't that going to mean a large number of players on a daily basis?

In any case, I said all along the hole CAN be played simply and cautiously.  It's still going to require at least one very good shot, which to me adds to the greatness.  But I sincerely do believe the temptation to get close to the green does exist and is a big part of what puts it into the high echelon of great short par 4s.


TH

ps Andy - great stuff - I too look forward to this hole more than any other.

[Kalen Braley]

TomD,

I was wondering if you would provide some insight as to the genisis of the green complex for 6.  Perhaps it was discussed before, but was the top of a dune chopped off to create the green or was it mounded up?

Did you ever 2nd guess its playability while creating it and take a step back and say hole hell, this is turning into quite the challenging green complex?

[Tim Bert]

Sorry I'm running behind on the holes.  I've got a friend in town and we are playing the Member-Guest tournament this weekend.   

Fortunately, the 6th place isn't a bad spot to get stuck, and it has generated some great conversation.  I'll probably be posting #7 some time Sunday.

[Joe Bentham]

 During the winter, when #6 is down wind the play is grip it and rip it.  During the summer driving the green isn't really part of the discussion with the normal wind.  The Curtis Cup players are a bad example for two reasons IMO; there was no wind to speak of during the event, and the hole was set up too long for them.
If driving the green is within a players capabilities then it would have to be at least considered.  The chance of ended up long and right of the green exists with the second from anywhere, so why not be there in one if possible?  The chip from there is less menacing when your there in one.
I think its a better hole in the summer when the wind is hard in the players face.  The options from the tee increase.  I like the fact that the thoughtless 'safe' tee ball down the left is punished.  I like telling the first time player who hits one WAY right that not only is it findable, but it might be just short of perfect.  Right of the green is also where the bump and run makes SO much sense to many links newbies for the first time.  I like #6 very much, enough in fact to call it my favorite hole on the course....

[Jim Adkisson]

Being a cheap flogger who only plays Bandon in November-March, Driver down the right side over the short fairway bunker and then bumping up the relatively benign slope of the right side is the only safe way to play #6 for me...

Anywhere right or long within 30 yards of this green is a flat blade shot...I don't have the game to be able to hold this green with any lofted club...I know it, I accept it.

This is one of my favorite holes that I have ever played...but so are almost half of the holes on PD!

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen:

A lot of the green complex on #6 was pretty much there for us.  The shelf which runs from #3 tees through to #6 green ended right there, and suggested a green to me.  If it hadn't been exactly that narrow I probably would have built it a touch wider, but I wasn't going to mess with a good thing.

Also, the mounds on the left edge of the green were there -- I had anticipated removing them to make a little more green space, but Jim Urbina left them when he roughed in the green, and I realized they were important as a backstop for the bump-and-run shots from the hollow to the right of the green so I left them.

The fall down to the left-hand bunker was also there; we never touched the face of that slope.  However, behind that bunker it was even steeper going down off the left side of the green, almost a vertical drop, and my associate Tom Mead insisted that we had to put some fill there so there was someplace for a ball to stop.  So, we trucked a bunch of sand over from the ridge left of #6 forward tee, and shaped the background for the big bunker.

[John Sheehan]

I love this hole.  It's pretty much everything I think a short par 4 should be.  It is so inviting, so beguiling, so enticing. The day we played was not exactly optimal for trying to drive the green - gale force winds in our face.  With no thoughts of driving the green, the wind made it impossible to use anything but a drive.  I pulled my drive (D'Oh!!).  My pulls usually tend to go quitea bit longer than my normal drives.  But with that wind, I still had 140 yards in.  I had to hit a FIVE iron which barely and mercifully cleared the massive left bunker. I hesitate to even call that monster a bunker.  That dune is probably more apt.  The ball rolled off the right edge.  I somehow managed to recover for a kick-in par. 

Any score was possible after that drive.  Divine intervention.  My immediate thoughts we of starting a new religion. 

We're going back in September and I am hoping for a calm day to make a complete and utter fool of myself.  My plan is to overestimate my capabilities and succumb to the siren's song. I think the plan is pretty much perfect.  Layup?  I should be so strong...  I only partially jest.  I think that is what makes the hole so magnificent -  To stave off any indecision on the tee, I have already accepted the fact that it is going to be impossible for me to play it smartly.  I-just-can't-help-myself.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Thanks for the insight as to the 6th green complex.  Its a one of a kind green complex and superb to know was created by mothers nature hand for the most part.  I can only imagine how much tougher it would have been with a more severe slope in the rear.

What were Keisers thoughts on the hole when you first proposed it?   

[Chip Gaskins]

could you say #6 is pretty one dimensional? 

the only real way (thus one dimensional) to play it for a decent score is lay back out to the right and hope for a flat lie from 80 yards. 

- playing left leaves you with a pitch that won't hold the green (or worse in that bunker). 
- laying way back leave too long of a shot to hold the green.
- trying to drive the green usually leaves you with a 40 yard shot to green way above you feet which certainly isn't the easiest precision shot.

so 80 yards out to the right is pretty much the only play i saw with a chance for birdie.

just my thoughts.  can't wait to talk about #7!

[Tim Bert]

#7 is a par 4
464 from the black tees
436 from the green tees

Another long hole that can play pretty short in the summer.  While I like both holes (#4 and #7) a good deal and I don't pretend to have a better proposal for Tom Doak to have designed or routed his course differently (though we've all tried in our heads, on paper, on this discussion forum, etc) I wish that both of these long two-shotters didn't have to play in almost the same wind.  I would have liked to see one long par 4 on the front nine demand two strong shots just to reach the green, though 13 can serve that purpose later in the round.  At the same time, I can only imagine how brutal the #4 / #7 combo must play in the winter wind.

My group has tended to have a bit of a "helping" cross wind on #7, which makes it play a bit more narrow than the wide fairway suggests.  The tee shot can definitely run through some of the angles on the sides of the fairways as it starts to narrow closer to the hole.  With the wind pumping, we've put tee shots pretty much everywhere imaginable on this one.  I've seen the hole play as little as driver / wedge for someone that can hit the ball (but that I wouldn't characterize as a bomber.)   

The first time I played it, the furry bumps well short of the actual green didn't really catch my eye.  I've gotten used to them, though I won't say I love them.  I think they make for some interesting recovery shots if the approach isn't well-played.  I've seen balls bounce off of them in many directions (including a helpful forward if you catch the correct part of the back side) off of these humps.  I've also seen the ball get stuck in the long grass on them.  I think I might enjoy them even more if the grass on them were maintained at fairway levels, though I suppose it wouldn't provide the raw, natural feel that currently exists.

In my opinion, the real treat of this hole is around the green.  Both the bunkering and the green itself is superb.  The green, while it lacks the exaggerated mounds of the 2nd green, has quite a bit of contour in it.  All of the bunkers are in play, and there is also a nice fall-off area on the back right where the ball will quickly funnel away from the pin and off the green.

Walking up to the 7th tee from the 6th hole


From the tee


From the fairway


Two views of the approach from closer to the green




A view of the green from the side


A view of the green complex from the 8th


Looking back on the hole.  You can see the shaved back right fall-off portion of the green on the left side of this photo.

[Chip Gaskins]

I couldn't wait until this hole came up.  This is my favorite hole on the property.  A fairly benign tee shot due to a fairway that looks to have a small nature valley and plenty of width.  The furry knobs makes the green look a lot closer to the player than it really is.  The fun on this hole is all around the green.  The green on #7 is seriously my favorite green complex in the world.  The bunkers cut right into the putting surface much like Royal Melbourne and the green seems to be like an amoeba that basically just fills up the flat areas between all the hazards.  Getting back to those back pin placements is really like threading a needle in firm and fast conditions.  Truly world class!

[Doug Wright]

I've only played this hole into the wind and it is very difficult. The good news in my experience is that the wind isn't as strong on this hole as #4 since it's somewhat sheltered. However, for me it's at least 180-220 yards in on the second.  My regular PD playing partner often lays up short of the grassy areas on this hole with his second shot because he can't reach. Although there is a lot of stuff around the green, for some reason I don't worry too much about it (maybe because there isn't death to the right like on #4 and I've been able to find spots from which recovery is not that difficult. I've found the recovery shots around #7 are fun and challenging given the varied pin locations that require you to work the ball around. Another very solid green. I think this is the most "traditional" hole on Pacific Dunes, a pretty straightforward and demanding par 4 at least into the wind.

[Dan Smoot]

I too have only played this hole into the winter wind.  For me, I find that I have had more success when I did not drive the ball sufficiently to reach the green in regulation.  I love the location and design of this entire green/bunker complex maybe more than any hole on the course.  It is visually intimidating when you have a long approach which I invariably have in the winter. The green contour itself is wonderful presenting a number of interesting hole locations which demands attention to what surrounds those locations.

It would be interesting to hear from TD how this hole evolved.  What did the area around the green look like at the beginning?