[Tim Pitner]

Very memorable when I played it, but not necessarily one that I think about when I look back at the course.  Maybe because 13 is so much more dramatic.

Pacific Dunes #4 is a better hole than #13, IMO.  Don't get me wrong, #13 has a lot going for it--the sand dunes are mammoth, obviously, and the ocean doesn't hurt.  I've hit everything from a SW to a 3 wood into #13.  But, I don't think you're tested as much off the tee on #13 as you are on #4 and you're not potentially faced with as difficult of a shot on #13 as you are on #4, namely the approach from the left.  I wouldn't say it's my favorite hole, but I wouldn't change a thing about it.  After the view of the ocean on #3, bringing it (or at least the cliffside) into play and into full view on #4 is terrific.  Definitely not a sell-out. 

[Peter Wagner]

Tom,
Please indulge a non-architect a couple of dumb questions:  

When you first walked this raw land with Mr. Keiser, did you start mentally laying out holes first along the cliff and then successively the rest?  Is that how a project like this gets started?

Was there added pressure in the design phase of PD because of the perfect nature of the site?  Maybe it's just me but a thought in my head might have been, "oh man, don't screw this up".

- Peter

[Mike Benham]

A sampling of more photos of #4 ... each with a story ...

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:

I have written a whole chapter of a book on the routing process for Pacific Dunes.  Someday I'll polish it off and get it published.

For now I will just say that Mr. Keiser was more focused on the "ocean holes" at first, because they were the easiest to visualize, and because he knew that most golfers would find those holes the most memorable.  The truth is probably the other way around -- any holes along the oceanfront were probably going to be considered great holes because of the setting, so how the holes inland connected to them was probably the more important part of the puzzle to solve, and was the key to where the ocean holes started and stopped.  But, yes, I suppose I probably looked to figure out the cliff edge first in my initial routing, even if I had it wrong then. 

(My first version of the routing was done on maps that didn't show the 6th & 7th holes at Bandon Dunes, so some holes I'd drawn through there had to be scrapped, which changed most of the rest of it.)

I have told many people that whatever "added pressure" there was because we had a great site to work with at Pacific Dunes, the other side of the coin was that it was a tremendous opportunity, which balanced out any pressure.  The only time we had any hesitation was when it was time to put a blade in the ground on #5 and start building something ... Jim Urbina and Dave Wilber and I were the only ones around that day, other than Peter Pittock was there to visit, and yes there was a moment when we all realized what we were about to start.  But as soon as we tore into the green site, it was gone, and we didn't think about it again until the last hole (#15) was finished.

[Peter Wagner]

Tom,

I've never played Cape Kidnapper's but a mutual friend of ours describes it as "Pacific Dunes on steroids".  When I look at web pics of CK I don't see the 'steroids' part but there must have been some Pacific Dunes influence in the design of CK.  Any thoughts?

Sometimes you hear architects say there was a 'happy accident' during the construction of a hole.  Somebody drove a dozer too far or whatever, creating an unintended feature that is kept.  Anything like that at Pacific Dunes?

- Peter

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:

Cape Kidnappers is a totally different course than Pacific Dunes, perhaps deserving of its own thread (like this) someday.  I hate the "on steroids" marketing phrase, but Cape K is 450 feet above the ocean, Pacific 100, and that leads to some of the main differences between them.

As for "happy accidents", the happiest was just that we were chosen to be the guys who got to build a course on that site.  I'll note any others on the hole-by-hole notes.

[Ed Oden]

This is one of my favorite pictures from any of my golf trips.  There is something about the path leading you toward the 4th fairway that hints at the journey ahead.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Was there ever any consideration to raise the tee height on #4, or did you guys keep that tee at the grade you found it?  I'm guessing it wasn't by accident that the hole plays a touch blind and always interesting to hear about what your intended strategy was in putting those tees where they are.

Kalen

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen:

Never thought about raising the tee, other than sand-capping it as we did for the entire hole.  There IS an elevated Tiger tee back by the snack bar at about 530 yards for those who like a nice view, though that is an awkward angle to play from; but it would have looked odd to build up the tees with the rest of the cliff line at a uniform height.

[Tim Bert]

OK - So I just about had everything typed up on the 5th and then I tried to click on a different tab in my browser and I accidentally clicked a shortcut to MapQuest.  Since I can quite figure out how to get my comments back (since they were never saved and posted) I'll be doing my best to re-create my thoughts.  The 5th is on its way shortly.

[Mike Demetriou]

Hate to ask another "newbie" question, but I what is "sand-capping?"

By the way, I've always wondered - to this group's knowledge, has Tiger (or Phil, or some other superhuman pro) ever played PD or the other Bandon tracks? I'm curious to hear what kind of reaction they might have.

Consider this - those guys probably don't get to experience the "buddy-trip" anymore. As I write this, I'm less than 36 hours from leaving for our first trip to Bandon. None of the eight of us have ever been. Though I'd probably sacrifice a kidney to play like Tiger, et. al., I feel badly for some of those guys that they don't get to enjoy the courses like we do - they probably don't get anxious and giddy to play a few rounds on an extended vacation from their daily lives like many of us can.  And when TD and C&C are laying out tracks, they're probably thinking more of guys like my friends and me than Tiger or Phil (TD's comment above about a Tiger tee notwithstanding).

[Tim Bert]

The 5th is a par 3
199 from the black tees
181 from the green tees

In honor of Haiku Tuesday (even though it is Monday night):

Timeless; without shape
Fifth green at Pacific Dunes
Front left turbo boost

In my opinion nothing is lost by turning away from the ocean.  For the first time player it is nearly impossible to imagine that the course is only going to get better from here.  That's exactly what happens in my opinion, and the repeat player walks off the 4th green without regret (other than, of course, the round where I carded a 10) anxious to play one of the best stretches of golf anywhere.

The 5th is one of my favorite par 3s on the course (and it has some mighty fine company as I think the par 3s are one of the great strengths of the course.)  The only one I outright prefer is #11 (more on that later.)  This one has grown on me with each subsequent trip.

I absolutely love the 5th green.  As I posted on a different thread (which I won't mention in order to avoid de-railing the discussion we've got going here) what I find most fascinating about the green is its lack of definition.  I am still unable to discern the actual shape or form of this green.  Every photo makes it look slightly different.  The fact that it melds beautifully with the surrounding turf is another huge plus.  Many of the greens at Pacific Dunes have this feature, but this one stands out to me as one that has no true beginning or end.  Take a look at some of the edges in the photos here and hopefully you'll see what I mean.

If this was the first hole constructed as Tom says it must have been an inspired start, and it also must have provided some great momentum for the rest of the process.

The view from the 5th tee (sans fog)


The view from the tee (fog included)


Approaching the green


And three views of the green I love so much






I apologize in advance for the train wreck I'm going to make of the 6th hole.  I know not how to constrain myself when taking photos of that hole and I likely won't be able to limit myself when posting them either.  That's for another day.

[Tim Bert]

I'll tee the commentary off with my own question now that I'm look closely at the photos I just posted.  Consider the final three photos I posted; the close-ups of the green.  The 3rd of 3 was taken in 2003.  The other two were taken in 2007.  It actually appears as if the natural meld with surroundings occurred along the way between those two trips.  The photo from 2003 shows a clear edge to the green.

Does anyone familiar with the maintenance practices at the resort know if this has evolved over time or it is just likely a coincidence or timing of photo since last mowing?  I personally love the ones from 2007 where it looks like the green just runs right into the rest of the turf.

[Ari Techner]

Tim

Thank you for this great thread.  Pacific Dunes is one of my favorite places in the world and I feel so very lucky to live so close and be able to spend time there. 

I love the 5th green complex.  The shot can be changed so much depending on pin position and the wind.  I love playing the shot off the bank left of the green to a front or middle pin and rolling it on.  The back pin is very tough to get close to.

[Tom Jefferson]

Morning, Tim;

The maintenance practices here at Bandon Dunes in relation to the definition of the green edges has evolved, more or less, over time, accelerated by the opening of Bandon Trails and Ken Nice's management of the nearly perfect fescue greens there. 
Having said that, there are certain times of the year when the edges appear more defined, based on moisture and rate of growth of the turf.
The other factor that affects this presentation is the personal preferences and practices of each superintendent; there is some differences between the courses that is the result of each supt's style, as well as the age of the turf.

Hope this helps, and thanks for a terrific thread!

Tom

[Tom_Doak]

Tom J:  Doesn't the "lack of definition" have something to do with not mowing a clean-up lap around the green on an everyday basis?

[Tom Jefferson]

Tom D.,.........Yes, and no.  As you are aware, we are on a every other day mow and roll (april-nov), so if we don't mow a cleanup pass one day in the mowing schedule, that effectively is a three day break in the clean up pass. 
In general, the fescue plant grows so slowly in our system that nearly eliminating the cleanup passes from the schedule doesn't make an appreciable difference in the result.
When one factors in the many local differences (i.e., between courses, greens within courses, and areas around the edge of individual greens), the result is that there are many instances where there is a persistent absence of a green edge here, and a persistent edge there.
The end result is a great variety, a natural, sorta seemless look, all of which becomes part of our presentation of true links conditions, Bandon Dunes style.

Tom

[Tom Huckaby]

Missed the discussion of 4.  Oh well.

So on to 5... and well... to me 5 is a let-down after the first 4.  Or maybe I just kinda want to get it over with because I know what's coming next, only possibly the greatest short par 4 on this planet.  But re 5, I can't really put a finger on it really but it just fails to inspire me all that much.  We taste the ocean, then quickly move away from it.  The "lack of definition" surely does nothing for me; and as Tom J. says, sometimes that's there, sometimes it's not.  Oh I do think this is a very good golf hole - the play banking it in from the left is very cool - and it gets very tough in any sort of wind... I just have a hard time calling it "great" whereas I have no reticence doing so for any of the prior holes.

But I think in the end this is OK... this is like a palate cleanser after the incredible appetizers and before the fantastic entrees that are to come....

And that's a good thing.  Golf courses can be "too much" also.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Charlie,

Playing that hole downwind in the summer wind makes using the left an almost must because if you land it on the green i doubt you can get it to stay on the green. Last time I played after duffing my tee ball I hit a wedge approach that landed short left and it almost ran off the back.  A back pin is pretty tough to get anywhere close.

I really liked this hole and it would have been one of my favorites if there weren't so many other great holes on the course.  Both its playability and how it blends in were both high points for me.  To boot the ocean views are still really really good on this hole so no disappointment after leaving 4.

[Tim Bert]

Charlie,

Playing that hole downwind in the summer wind makes using the left an almost must because if you land it on the green i doubt you can get it to stay on the green. Last time I played after duffing my tee ball I hit a wedge approach that landed short left and it almost ran off the back.  A back pin is pretty tough to get anywhere close.

I really liked this hole and it would have been one of my favorites if there weren't so many other great holes on the course.  Both its playability and how it blends in were both high points for me.  To boot the ocean views are still really really good on this hole so no disappointment after leaving 4.

I assume you mean a front pin is tough to get close?  That's been my experience and it seems to hang together with everything else you've said.

[Kalen Braley]

Tim,

Yes you are correct a front pin is probably even more difficult to get close to, but a rear pin is just as bad beause if you land it up on that shelf its not staying.  So one must use some guess work and run it up the slope to even have a chance.

[Tom Huckaby]

I really liked this hole and it would have been one of my favorites if there weren't so many other great holes on the course.  Both its playability and how it blends in were both high points for me.  To boot the ocean views are still really really good on this hole so no disappointment after leaving 4.

Kalen - you turn away from the ocean for the most part... and my disappointment after leaving 4 is more in terms of knowing what's to come, as I say.  The first time I played PD I thought 5 was a very cool golf hole (and I still do); there was zero disappointment.  Each subsequent playing I kinda like it less and less, just want to get it over with.. which causes me to short-shrift it and be sorta tricked into playing it poorly!  That is, I think about 6 as I play 5.. and 5 doesn't have enough going on to change this, at least not for me.  In the end this is a good thing I think, in the overall context of the course... 5 is a fine sorbet.  But taking it in a vacuum and just looking at it as a single golf hole, well... I don't see the greatness.  The good news is this only tends to matter when talking hole against hole outside the context of the course as a whole, which is an esoteric discussion at best, meaningless at worst.

5 works as it is.  I think perfectly so, the more I think about it.

TH

[Tim Pitner]

I agree that it's easy to overlook #5 because of what came before and what is coming after, but it's a very good par 3, IMO.  It sits very well on the land (as Kalen said) and the green is full of interest.  It's a bit of a respite after #4, which can be very difficult, and #6, where you can make a 3 or an X.  Although not one of my favorite holes on the front 9, I think you can argue that #5 is one of the better par 3s on the course (I prefer #11; I think #5 is better than #14).  #5 is probably the most "linksy" of the par 3s. 

[Tom Huckaby]

I agree that it's easy to overlook #5 because of what came before and what is coming after, but it's a very good par 3, IMO.  It sits very well on the land (as Kalen said) and the green is full of interest.  It's a bit of a respite after #4, which can be very difficult, and #6, where you can make a 3 or an X.  Although not one of my favorite holes on the front 9, I think you can argue that #5 is one of the better par 3s on the course (I prefer #11; I think #5 is better than #14).  #5 is probably the most "linksy" of the par 3s. 

Agreed with all of that, Tim.  The problem comes when 5 is compared with other great golf holes on other great golf courses.  If we don't do that, we have no problems.  5 is a very good par 3 and works in the context of the course perfectly.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

I've only played it once, so you certainly have better perspective in the mutliple plays dept.  I just really digged the look of the hole and came to like it even more when it played just as fun as it looks.

I would agree when you know whats coming next its likely hard to focus on 5, but I could gladly play holes like this all day.  While I liked 11 and 14  better as par 3s, 5 was no slouch.

Tim I think captured part of its essence too with its "linksy" feel and flavor, especially in light of how this hole almost demands a run-up approach to keep it on the green.

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