[Kalen Braley]

Tim P - just to clarify - the bunker that troubles me is not the Shoe bunker, but rather the very deep one to the left.  And I do recall that clearing of the shoe bunker was definitely an issue for me... must have been playing the back tees and/or had wind in my face.  Thus the question for all - same as George's - assuming clearance is an issue, would you rather be left or right?  My assumption was left was better... but my memory isn't good... I thought right was completely blind, left would give you a view....

TH

Thats how I remember it too, left is better than right unless your in that nasty bunker over there.

Any thoughts on how the hole plays in the previaling winter wind?  Just a smash driver followed by a pitch on the green?

[Joe Bentham]

the best place to be if you aren't going to carry the bunkers is short left, in front of the bigger bunker.  And most days in the 'season' carrying the bunkers isn't a given for the strongest players, let alone you and me. 
In the Winter the wind is at your back and your line is between the two bunkers.  Most times your left with a short pitch and a putt.  Or even a putt and a putt...

[Tom Huckaby]

Joe - great stuff.  In the scenario I pose, do you think the advantage gained in angle fromt he left is worth the risk going in that left bunker?  Or is the assumption/play that one just stays short of it?  I recall hitting a hard driver and being quite bummed when it reached the bunker... and I saw my fate.  I think I had assumed given distance and wind that I couldn't reach that bunker so I hit right at it (ie left of Shoe).  Perhaps 3wood is better play next time in this scenario?  Or would driver right be better? 

TH

ps - putt and a putt for sure!  I recall putting from something like 60 yards short of the green... it seemed to me to be a very proper play....

[Tim Pitner]

Tom,

I gotcha.  Regardless of the tees I've played or the wind, my aiming point has always been the Shoe bunker or just left or right of it.  If you can get past the Shoe bunker (even if not on the fly) you can use the slope in the fairway to have your ball roll toward the left side of the fairway.  If you can't reach the Shoe bunker, I still think it's better to not mess with the left bunker at all and stay more toward the center of the fairway. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim - very cool - in the conditions I am thinking of, yeah right at the Shoe bunker wouldn't be a bad play either.  But if one stays just short of it one would be blind too, no?  Of course given one rarely hits just where one aims, well... seems like this might be the best play!

Curious what Joe thinks about the gain from the left v. the risk of that death left bunker, though.

Man I love this hole.

TH

[Wyatt Halliday]

Kalen,

We played two consecutive days with two opposing winds. 1st day the wind was a major factor into us, barely quartering from the right. Tee shot in gathering right hand bunker. 2nd day, the wind had the same strength, however, it was blowing down from behind and left. Result: my drive was ten paces off the front edge.

Tim P. and Tom H.,

I believe the prudent play into the prevailing NW wind would be short of the shoe bunker, and short of the menacing left bunker. This would leave a much longer approach but would allow for the opportunity save a shot otherwise lost extracting a ball from either.

I believe we have now identified three choices from the tee. As if this great par four needed more help!!

[Wyatt Halliday]

Tom and Tim P.,

Seems I was late to the party, you guys already had it figured!

[Tom Huckaby]

Wyatt - well, Tim P. has it figured...I am still on the tee deciding what to try to do!  God help the group behind me....

 

In any case it would seem playing SHORT is the best play in these conditions.  Short of Shoe, short of left bunker.  Now the question is is either SIDE better? 

And oh yes, choices choices choices... and this on a hole that even if one just slugged away would still be great... yowza!

TH

[Wyatt Halliday]

Tom,

You could actually end up hitting less club from the tee than you would on approach. Using the contours left and long of the green could the best bet. Short from the tee, long on the approach.

Pull the trigger my dear sir.....we have putted out and are waiting patiently!!!!

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

You could actually end up hitting less club from the tee than you would on approach. Using the contours left and long of the green could the best bet. Short from the tee, long on the approach.

Pull the trigger my dear sir.....we have putted out and are waiting patiently!!!!

LOVE IT!

OK, OK, I'm hitting 3wood, aiming at left bunker.  Short of that will mean no carry over hill, run up a long shot in.  Hell I'm hoping to get out of this darn tough hole with a 5 anyway.

TH

[Tim Pitner]

Well, I may have it figured, but execution has been a problem. 

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but this hole is an excellent example of how wider fairways with centerline bunkers are more interesting than narrow fairways with trouble on the sides. 

Speaking of centerline bunkers (and I know I'm jumping ahead here), how about PD #3?  Terrific ones on that hole too. 

[Wyatt Halliday]

Tom,

After the long second, you may even feel the thrill of a running jump look ala Sergio.

Yippeeee!!

[Tom Huckaby]

Wyatt - damn right!  Yet another aspect to add to the fun and greatness of this golf hole.

Tim - so very true re centerline bunkers... and wow you're right 2 and 3 are both great examples....

TH

[Joe Bentham]

If you think driver can make it to the bunkers into the wind but not over them then I don't see why that would be the play.  Three wood at the big left bunker, is a better play then driver right of shoe.  Left is less blind and allows one to take the green side bunkers out of play and still get it close.  
I disagree with Wyatt about left and long being of any use.  Short left, is smart and short right is how you get it close most days.  The up and down from behind this green is the little sister to the one facing players from the same area into 6 green, IMO.

[Jed Peters]

If you think driver can make it to the bunkers into the wind but not over them then I don't see why that would be the play.  Three wood at the big left bunker, is a better play then driver right of shoe.  Left is less blind and allows one to take the green side bunkers out of play and still get it close.  
I disagree with Wyatt about left and long being of any use.  Short left, is smart and short right is how you get it close most days.  The up and down from behind this green is the little sister to the one facing players from the same area into 6 green, IMO.

What did chanon hit there, into the wind, in the hail storm?

He's the average "stronger" player I'd think that'd play the course....

[Wyatt Halliday]

Joe,

I was speaking to the utilization of the back left slope shown here. While I agree with you that long, meaning over the green is dead, I don't see any use for an entire quadrant to be wasted.

My memory fades from time to time so let me know if I am missing something.

WH

[Kalen Braley]

It seems with all this fantastic input that the general rule of thumb would be to stay out of those bunkers, whether centerline, left, or greenside on that shelf.

Who woulda thunk all these options would exist on a short par 4 with a wide fairway...should be an easy par everytime right?

Shivas, in rebuttal...I do not think that wide fairways is code for easy as has been suggested in threads of past.  This hole is a great example of how a wide fairway is almost the opposite.  Its got so many options that poor Huck is still on the tee trying to figure out what the hell to do!!

[Tom Huckaby]

If you think driver can make it to the bunkers into the wind but not over them then I don't see why that would be the play.  Three wood at the big left bunker, is a better play then driver right of shoe.  Left is less blind and allows one to take the green side bunkers out of play and still get it close.  
I disagree with Wyatt about left and long being of any use.  Short left, is smart and short right is how you get it close most days.  The up and down from behind this green is the little sister to the one facing players from the same area into 6 green, IMO.

Great stuff, thanks Joe.  Thus I have finally made up my mind on the tee... short and left it is.

 

Re Shivas and wide fairways being a code word for easy, well... I don't think he meant that to include wide fairways with center bunkers.

TH

[Doug Wright]

PD #2 is a terrific hole, and one of my favorites on the course. It really makes you think. Pound for pound (ie yardage) it's one of the best holes anywhere IMO. Given my proclivity to "fade" the ball, I'm usually right of the Shoe bunker from the back tees and able to carry that bunker from the green tees unless there's a lot of wind. There's much more room on the right side of the fairway but the second shot is blind over a dune and very difficult. The good news is you can use the right greenside slope as a side board--just don't overdo it because playing from the junk greenside right is really tough.

Not much discussion of the green above. It is one of the best greens on the course. The slopes and contours are fairly subtle but challenging, and like a number of the PD greens they allow for many options for those who miss the green to use the slopes in various ways.  I'll mention this again when we get to #4 and #8.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Tom,

I meant to add that if you were to choose the right side every time, the approach is just as difficult from 75 yards as it would be from 200. Option A: Tight lob shot over the right greenside bunkers...don't catch it thin or it goes over the green into no man's land as Joe described. Option B: Long iron or fairway wood from THAT angle? No thanks!

The key to me is how shallow the green becomes with an approach from the right side. The green itself is not necessarily tiny, but the surrounding contours make it so.

I promise, I will leave for a while and let you putt out.

WH

[Kalen Braley]

IIRC the back right portion of this green had a lot of stuff going on and remember having a wicked putt from above the hole!

I would also agree this was one of the more interesting greens on the course and its perhaps the slope of this green that makes coming in from the right so tough, as well as the blindness!

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

I meant to add that if you were to choose the right side every time, the approach is just as difficult from 75 yards as it would be from 200. Option A: Tight lob shot over the right greenside bunkers...don't catch it thin or it goes over the green into no man's land as Joe described. Option B: Long iron or fairway wood from THAT angle? No thanks!

The key to me is how shallow the green becomes with an approach from the right side. The green itself is not necessarily tiny, but the surrounding contours make it so.

I promise, I will leave for a while and let you putt out.

WH

Wyatt - no way man, I need the help!  You aren't going anywhere.  I've now hired you as caddie for those times Joe is unavailable.  

And those are great points re coming in from the right - that's kinda what I was thinking although that's easy to say NOW that you've spelled it out so well!  I don't like that shot from the right no matter how far it is.

TH

[Tim Bert]

Interesting perspective on the green, Doug.

Subtle is not a word that would ever come to my mind when thinking about the green at #2. My recollection is that it has some of the most wild humps and bumps of any of the greens on the coruse.

[Mike Benham]

No more survey responses please.  There will be something everyone can love and hate about this thread before we're done!

Sorry, I will chime in because I can ...

I would prefer multiple threads, one per hole.

As for clogging up the 1st page of the board, so be it, we are here to discuss architecture and god forbid we have multiple topics on it at once.

The one topic per hole will also provide an additional result, the holes discussed more might end being the "best" holes at PD, while the lessor discussed holes will fall to the bottom.  Or maybe not ... one thing is for sure, we will now never know if this theory is true.

[Doug Wright]

Interesting perspective on the green, Doug.

Subtle is not a word that would ever come to my mind when thinking about the green at #2. My recollection is that it has some of the most wild humps and bumps of any of the greens on the coruse.

OK maybe not so subtle; I see from the photo there are more humps/bumps towards the front of the green than I remember (seems like we always played to a back pin where there is more of a sustained slope that was pronounced but not overly severe).

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