[Bob Jenkins]

Tim,

I too have had difficulty scoring on this hole as, I suspect, have a lot of others. It seems as though it should be an easy par but it is not.

Your love of PD is shining through all of this thread and I, among others, really appreciate your comments and your pics. Thank you. I love this place too and if I could only score on this course like I seem to be able to on Bandon Dunes, I would love it even more.

Hope you are well.

Bob Jenkins

[Carl Nichols]

The great thing is that when you go for this green with a long iron or fairway wood, you tend to bail out right away from the trouble left (large bunker short left of the green and death left and long of the green).  The problem when this happens is that your ball tends to funnel into the little area right of the green behind the dune that bumps up to the green (or worse, reaches the gorse).  Then you're faced with a very awkward shot or 30-50 yards which may be blocked out by a portion of the dune, or at the very least will be affected  by the spine running off the tip of the dune into the green.  This was the predicament I found myself in both times (and only times) I have played Pac Dunes. 

I have been in exactly the same spot; the uniqueness of the dune is one of the reasons I really like this hole.  I also like that 12 comes between two holes that can require very precise approaches, and thus is a nice change of pace. 

[Tim Bert]

Bob - Funny you mention scoring at Pacific Dunes.  I'm a 10 index right now and I've been anywhere from a 12 to a 16 when I visited Bandon.  Bandon Dunes is the only course on the resort where I've ever broken 90.  I've done it twice there, including an 86 that probably could have been an 82.  I have had about 5 rounds at PD where I should have had a reasonable chance to break 90, and I've never pulled it off.  The last time I played the course I was 13 over through 14 holes and I played the last 4 in +7 to limp home in 91.  

The most painful of them all was probably a different round where I shot 91 - with a 10 on #4, a 7 on #14, and a 9 on #18.  That round also included a re-tee on #1 for a lost ball, so I technically played from #1 tee to #18 green in 89 strokes, but I can rationalize all I want.  I was +4 on the remaining 4 holes that round.

The next time around to Bandon, I may only play this course until I get it done.  

[Tom_Doak]

Tim B:  I assume that round you just described was into a south wind, since all the holes you made big numbers on play south.

I hate to comment on #12 this early in the thread, but I'm off on a trip for the next week and probably won't be here much, so this is my only chance.

I think I've explained here already that the most difficult part of routing Pacific was to get #4 to play south along the coast, and to jump from the coast at 11, out at 12, and back in at 13 without some really awkward transitions.  In a previous version of the routing, after #11 we played from 4 green back to a green by the middle tee on #4, turned around and went back to the south, and came back to this green location from #3 tee after playing #6 ... so all of the oceanfront holes would have run north, but they wouldn't all have been consecutive.

Once we sorted the routing, we actually built the back tee for #5 as a tee for 12, but we realized that someone would play down #4 to shorten the hole, and ruin it for everyone.  So the tees moved right over toward the dunes.

Downwind, this is a pretty simple hole except that you think you've GOT to make 4 or even 3 to keep pace.  We did contour a swale in the approach so you could steer a ball in from right to left. 

Into the wind, the hole is another story entirely, because that bunker in the middle of the second shot catches a ton of balls.  It's a bit farther to clear on the second shot than it looks standing in the fairway, because of a fold in the contours that makes you not see about 20-25 yards of ground in front of the bunker.  I've even gone in the bunker after I was sure the ball had already bounced past it!  And if you get in that bunker, no way you get on the green with your third shot.

The other reason people have so much trouble with the hole is because the green is very big and tilts a bit more toward the ocean than they realize ... so a bailed-out third shot leaves a 70-foot putt which few people judge correctly.

Finally, a construction point ... all of the dunes to the left of the hole for the last 150 yards are man-made, as is the ridge which houses the greenside bunker.  It was very flat in that area, and we had to do something to steer play away from #4 tee (which is pretty close) and out to the right.  Otherwise, we could not have put the green up against the back dune.  The mounds to the right between #3 and #12 were added to stop players from mistakenly playing to this green on #3.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom - fantastic stuff, many thanks.  But are you going to leave ANYTHING for the book?

 

I love 12, the main reason being the pressure one feels to make a score when downwind, and the struggle one has to achieve it in either wind.  To me it's another genius golf hole on a course full of them.

TH

[Tim Pitner]

Some poster (I forget if it was on this thread or not) recently wondered whether a good way to judge a course is to consider the relative strength of its weakest holes.  I think it is (assuming you don't have 18 of them) and by this measure, Pacific Dunes comes out very well.  Rightly or wrongly, #12 is going to be identified by most people as one of the weaker holes at PD.  It looks simple enough but it's a very solid hole, IMO. 

I've played it in helping and hurting winds and I'd have to say it's more interesting when it plays as a potential two-shotter.  Into the wind, it's very long.  Interesting features include the center bunker, which is very deceptive in distance, and particularly the contour near the green that Tom Doak mentioned that moves a ball from right to left (hey, that's my preferred ball flight).  I also like the way the green is nestled below the large dune.  It is a birdie hole downwind, but it's caught me out more times than not. 

[rjsimper]

I think 12 is a better hole than 15...I've played it predominantly downwind and going for 12 in 2 scares the hell out of me...not the first time you try it, but maybe the third time you try it and know that the bunker or way right are not bargains.

[Tom Huckaby]

That is a very intriguing thought (judging a course by the strength of its perceived weakest holes).  Going over many great courses in my mind, I can't think of any that don't come out well this way.  Pacific Dunes surely does great by this measure.

As for 12, great stuff, fully agreed.  It's funny but many do cite this as one of the weaker holes there, but I tend to look forward to playing it a lot more than many others.... I'm with Ryan - I prefer it to 15 for sure....

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Tim,

Yes thank you, great point!!!

Put me in the camp as one of those who thinks 12 is in the bottom 3 on PD.  But here is the thing, I would love to have a hole like number 12 on my home course as its still a really good hole despite it being way down on the list.  A good acid test for greatness IMO.

Kalen

[Richard Boult]

I've played it in helping and hurting winds and I'd have to say it's more interesting when it plays as a potential two-shotter.  Into the wind, it's very long.  Interesting features include the center bunker, which is very deceptive in distance, and particularly the contour near the green that Tom Doak mentioned that moves a ball from right to left (hey, that's my preferred ball flight).  I also like the way the green is nestled below the large dune.  It is a birdie hole downwind, but it's caught me out more times than not. 

I'll always remember this hole for 2 of my best shots ever into a strong headwind in my 1st round at PD. I got on in 2 with a "stinger" 3-wood and nearly holed the putt for eagle from 50 feet out.  I found that the hole just invited you to swing as hard as you can from both the tee and fairway.

[Tim Pitner]

I found that the hole just invited you to swing as hard as you can from both the tee and fairway.

Art,

I agree and that's probably why I've ended up in some very strange places on that hole. 

Getting on in 2 into a strong wind?  You must be a big hitter.  That's almost inconceivable to me. 

[Jed Peters]

12 is a good hole, that, IMHO, allows for the player to take a bit of rest/breather and the potential for birdie before the VERY TOUGH 13th, and the sometimes don't-make-par-even-though-you-think-you-should-have 11th and 10th.

I think incorporating a shorter, easier par 5 was a pretty good idea....and coming around the corner to the 13th tee invokes yet another great feeling of exhilaration...

[Tom Huckaby]

12 is a good hole, that, IMHO, allows for the player to take a bit of rest/breather and the potential for birdie before the VERY TOUGH 13th, and the sometimes don't-make-par-even-though-you-think-you-should-have 11th and 10th.

I think incorporating a shorter, easier par 5 was a pretty good idea....and coming around the corner to the 13th tee invokes yet another great feeling of exhilaration...

GREAT points there also!

12 in a vacuum is a darn good hole I think - for the reasons we've stated here - but when one takes into account how it fits in the course (as we really should more than taking it in a vacuum) - then it is even greater.  Like #5, it works perfectly - just for the reasons Jed states.

TH

[Richard Boult]

Getting on in 2 into a strong wind?  You must be a big hitter.  That's almost inconceivable to me. 

For me, it was barely doable w/ 2 of my best shots from the 507 yard "green" tees... probably closer to 490 to where I "just got on."  Easy iron in with the wind at your back.

[Tim Bert]

Tim B:  I assume that round you just described was into a south wind, since all the holes you made big numbers on play south.

Summer wind, so all of those holes were playing downwind in that round.

[Tim Bert]

I think 12 is a better hole than 15...I've played it predominantly downwind and going for 12 in 2 scares the hell out of me...not the first time you try it, but maybe the third time you try it and know that the bunker or way right are not bargains.

I probably prefer 15 for the exact same reason.  I've predominantly played 15 downwind, and going for it is a realistic possibility but very scary.  I've been next to #15 in 2 and come away with an 8, but more on that later.

[Alan Gard]

In the comparison between #12 and #15, I end up liking #12 better even though I've had generally more success (at least two good performances) on #15 and that hole also offers more tricky shots around the green.

I like the blend fairway, the demand the bunker forces on a second shot when playing the hole into the wind, and the imposing dune of death behind the green.  There's something I like about a hole where long simply is not an option, particularly with what feels like a narrow green (a bit like #3 in that way actually).

Into the wind, one needs to hit a good tee shot here to have a chance.  So while one has some room, striking the ball pure off the tee is essential.  And then the second shot needs to be struck well to avoid the bunkers.  There are a lot of par 5's where one can get away with mediocre first and second shots, but this par 5 doesn't allow that. 

Also, while you are not at the ocean's edge, it is still easily in sight, which makes for a nice segue between the beautiful #11 and #13 holes with their wonderful cliff-edge play.

[Tim Bert]

#13 is a par 4
The black tee is 444
The green tee is 390

The 13th is is one of my favorite par 4s.  Much like the 11th, it combines the wow / eye candy factor with a tremendous golf hole.  It is the last two-shot hole that plays into the summer wind (only the 17th after this one goes at the wind) and it is a beast when the wind is howling.  There is ample room in the landing area, but, much like the 4th, the ocean drives the golfer to the opposite side (and often more trouble.)  The trouble opposite the ocean is not quite as subtle on this hole.  The gigantic dune on the right side of the fairway may be one of the few sites in golf that can draw attention away from the ocean.

The hole is long but playable from the green tee even in a strong wind.  A well struck drive should reach the peak of the incline and provide a great (and terrifying) look at the green.  In a lighter wind, a drive with some boom on it can be rewarded with a boost from the dramatically sloped fairway.

The approach in the summer is usually played with a long-iron or hybrid.  There's more room up around the green than can be seen from the fairway, but danger lurks everywhere.  By the time you finish this hole, it is hard to believe that only three holes on this seaside course have played directly on the ocean.    Many participants were debating where the climax of this course occurs, and I think it is right here.  There's still some great golf to be played on the way in to be sure, but arriving at the 13th green only two holes after playing the world class 11th can be overwhelming to the senses.  This is a spectacular site for golf, and walking off the 13th green you are left with a sense that you've just completed a long stretch of some of the best golf holes to be found anywhere.  This is the scene I long for when I dream of golf.

The 13th hole from the path to hole 4


From the tee


From the forward tee.  This normally serves as the ladies tee.  We played alternate shot during our evening round and chose to play the 13th from this tee.  We had never ventured over there prior to this round.  The view is particularly good from this tee, and the angle tends to make you hit your shot even further to the right than desired.


The approach to the green


A wide view from the same position


From behind the pin with 14 in the distance


Looking back on the hole


Two shots from the 14th


This is one of my favorites in my collection


The painting on my wall...
 

[Wyatt Halliday]

Tim,

I must say that your favorite is mine as well. I have seen many shots from near that angle, but none from that exact perspective.

It reminds me of the sights, sounds and smells of the day two years ago.

[Phil McDade]

Tim:

Wow! That is just stunning stuff for #13. I've seen pictures before, but never realized how contoured the fairway is; I'd be real interested to hear how the fairway contours come into play. A spectacular seaside hole with an enormous looming dune, perhaps the fairway gets overlooked? It's pretty incredible.

[Pete_Pittock]

Excuse me for adding a picture to your album. I traipsed around with the Renaissance gang during construction and had to roll under a barbed wire fence to take the photo.

[Tim Bert]

Pete - Fabulous photo!  That's what I hoped this thread would be all about - sharing perspectives of the course.  Yours is one that few of us ever had the opportunity to witness.

Thanks for sharing! 

[Jim Nugent]

Pete, I really like your photo, too.  Would love to see more photos of sites before the holes were built.  Gives us an idea of what the architects faced in routing, placing hazards and moving earth. 

[Pete_Pittock]

Sometime on that trip someone said the thirteenth would be a world-class hole. My thought - 'yeah, right'. Then DUH. After playing this hole and walking to the next tee reflection time on the driftwood bench is a must. Dan King will agree. 

[Ted Kramer]

Wow. And I don't mean to make light of Tom's skill as an architect.
But come on . . . Even I, a weekend hack with no design experience at all, can see an incredible golf hole right there . . .
talk about a great piece of property being a key to great golf . . .I have to say that I'm a little shocked that the land looked like that before any work was done. Seems almost too perfect . . .

-Ted

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