[Jim Nugent]

Tom Doak, maybe you've answered this before, I just haven't seen it.  How difficult/tricky was it to route Pacific Dunes? 

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

That's a long story, but the short version is that I did three different routings -- one before I got there, one after a 5-day site visit, and the final one six months later during another 4-day visit.

The first one had to be chucked because I had a few holes in the space occupied by 6-7-8 at Bandon Dunes, which didn't show on my map.  There were four holes on that plan which we used in the final version -- 6, 10, 11 and 16 -- plus pieces of other holes.  13 and 14 weren't even on the map; Mr. Keiser gave me that land to work with to make up for the section he had given David off of our site.

The second version had quite a few of today's holes -- 1, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, and 16 -- and, again, parts of others.  [#2 would have been a long par-3 to the landing area, for example, and then #7 would have been #3.]  But some of that area was still covered in gorse, so we couldn't see what was going on that well.  Mr. Keiser was concerned about the back-to-back par-3 holes and about having all the coastal holes running to the north [#4 was replaced by a different hole running north].  I knew the par-3's pretty much had to stay, but went back to work on the problem of #4 after the gorse had burned.  Once we found the green site on #3 (which had previously been under gorse), the rest of it came together pretty fast.

[Matthew Hunt]

Tom, what inspired you to put in two greens?

[Tim Bert]

Tom

How strongly would you have pushed for back-to-back 3s if CPC hadn't existed down the coast?  Would Mike Keiser have approved?

Tom - Not sure if you missed this or saw it and chose not to answer.  I'm curious to know if CPC ever entered the discussion as a talking point when convincing Mike Keiser to go with the back-to-back 3s.  I promise I won't ask a 3rd time!  Once could be an oversight.  Twice I'll take as  a "no comment." 

[Tom Jefferson]

Tim;

Count me as one that thinks the 9th played to the upper green is a stronger, more challenging hole than the lower.  In either wind the second shot to the upper is demanding, primarily because the green simply is not offered as a clear target........it, as much as any green at the resort, simply lies there as part of the terrain, without support on the sides or back to define it.  It, more than any, is simply golf ground more closely mowed that it's surrounds.  It merely is a spot in the terrain on the way to the tenth tee on the bluff.
And that, in my mind, makes the upper green unique, difficult to play to even with a well placed tee shot on the right half of the fairway.
In the summer wind it is merely a short pitch, but one that asks to be run in.
The green, while soft enough to be pinnable, offers little comfort; a shot left on the front becomes a difficult two putt, to any cup location. And in the raging south winds of winter, it is a long iron into a non target.

On the other hand, played in a summer wind, there is no tee shot at the resort (save #3 at the Trails, also when downwind),  that is as freely played as the one to the lower fairway, and a shot to a rolling green separated into distinct areas, a green without one single simple putt.

This hole, as every hole at Pac, is not one to take for granted........

Tom

[Tom_Doak]

Tom J:

Sorry, I saw your question but got sidetracked.

Honestly, I never thought I would build back-to-back par-3 holes anywhere.  I played Cypress Point for the first time when I was 15 and I've known that it worked there ever since, but just about everywhere else it seems like a gimmick.  And honestly, I never thought I would get a place to build two holes like that on the ocean.  But I was stuck with it once I found out #10 couldn't be a par four because David Kidd had used too much ground for it. 

Yes, I did mention Cypress Point to Mike K., but really what convinced him was my logic ... #10 was too good a green site to pass up, and #11 was too good to hit a blind tee shot over the dune behind the green.  Interestingly, he was more of a fan of #10 than of #11 in the beginning, which tells you something about how much work we did on the two holes relative to each other.

As for your comments on the two greens on #9 ... actually, the lower green on #9 is the only one on the course which is just laying on the natural contour pretty much untouched.  The upper green is not far off, but we had to build up the back of it quite a bit so that balls wouldn't just run all the way through it every time ... the front 2/3 of it is pretty much natural.  I did a lot of the shaping on that green myself.  Interestingly, too, it's one of the only greens Mike ever questioned ... he didn't like that little hump in the front right third of it.

[Tom Jefferson]

Tom D;

I think Tim B was the one who asked the CPC question........but no matter, your comments are always appreciated.
Interesting your comments about shaping the two greens.  I was fooled by the back edge ridge of lower nine...it looks pushed up, as opposed to the flattish meadowy complex behind that green.
And the upper green just appears to effortlessly flow into the terrain leading to the cliffside tee for 10. 
We, in observing a course's features, can only attempt to understand the truth about the various cuts, fills, and shaping that appears in the final product of a course, but I guess the SKILL that is employed ultimately hides what was there before the work begins.  I have always assumed that the upper tee had that elevation and that leading edge, and now I have to question that long held assumption.

That process of observing the 'before and after' continues for me, on a daily basis, and in a fascinating way, as Old Mac progresses.

Thanks,
Tom

ps.........now back to the Open, at my original home course, Torrey.

[Matthew Hunt]

Tom, what inspired you to put in two greens?

bump

[Tim Bert]

Related to Matthew's question, what came first - two tees at 10 or two greens at 9?

[Tom_Doak]

The two tees at ten came first. 

Before we started construction, Mike Keiser had asked me why it was that the back tees always had the best view of every hole, and I said it was because they were usually in line so the back tee had to be higher to see over the rest.  He asked how you could overcome that, and I said by offsetting the tees ... so on #10, where Mike liked the upper tee for the average guy, I wanted to put in a lower back tee for the good player.  [We were also keenly aware of trying to make the back-to-back 3's as different as possible, and one important part of that was making 10 long and 11 short.]

So we had the two tees on ten, and the upper green on #9 which came first.  But we had to clear a lot of the lower part of #9 fairway in order to accommodate a hooked tee shot, and once we'd done that, I started seeing the case for the lower green on #9 and the differing tee shots it would create.  On one walk-through I asked Mike whether he liked the view down toward the lower green, and he said yes, so we went ahead and built the lower green as well.  It only cost a few more irrigation heads to do it ... the greens mix is pretty much free in Bandon.  The irony is that the upper ninth green is the biggest green on the whole course, so we couldn't justify it on the basis of needing green space ... when Tom Fazio builds his two-green par-4 holes, both of the greens are usually on the small side.

[John Kirk]

In general, I like the upper 9th green better, but i like to hit the swinging hook off the tee to the left fairway.  I like the lower 10th tee better.

The hardest part about 9 is the mislabeled sprinkler head about 125 yards out, on the left side of the fairway.  I swear one of the sprinkler heads has the wrong yardage to the left green, and it has fooled me several times, including the last time I played the course.  It seems half the time I double check to make sure I have the right yardage (white or yellow numbers for distances to top and bottom greens), decide I have about 120 downwind and downhill to center of the lower green, so I hit my 95-100 yard club down the hill, and end up 5 yards short of the green.  Doh!

[Tim Bert]

The 10th hole is a par 3
206 from the black tee
163 from the green tee

Those yardages sound more like the lower tee and upper tee than black and green.  I'm sure someone will clarify that point.

The 10th brings us back to the ocean.  The route depends upon the green you just played on the 9th.  It's fitting in my mind that in the summer the lower tee plays tougher after playing to the easier lower 9th green.  The upper 10th is a little more straight-forward after a tougher 9th green.   It all evens out in the end, though I'll take the upper combo.  I know I'm supposed to like the lower tee better.  It's a tougher hole.  The surroundings are beautiful from that lower tee, and it is an extremely intimidating shot into the summer wind.  I like playing the upper better.  In this respect, I guess I'm just a shallow-minded scenery hog.  It's probably also the fact that the upper tee is the only opportunity to play a par 3 on this course with a significant elevation drop.  If one of the other holes played a little more downhill (I guess 17 does too but it doesn't feel like it) I'd be satisfied with the lower tee.  You can't really go wrong with either one.  All-in-all, the 10th is a hole I really enjoy.  It's a great start to a back nine that will allow you to score, but also punish you if your swing is loose.

The 10th can't compare to the all-world 11th in my book, but few par 3s can.  More on that later this week.   

One must not pass up on the opportunity to play the hole in the late evening when few are on the course.  Tee one up on the 10th upper and play a ball down to the 6th at Bandon Dunes.  It's a wicked shot and the green sets up much more difficulty for this shot than the intended 6th.  No need to go down and finish out the hole; just play closest to pin.  Hmmm... so that's where all those stray balls on the 6th at Bandon come from!  I have a photo of this tee shot to the 6th, which I will post tomorrow.  I don't have my laptop with me at the moment.

Happy Father's Day to all the dads out there!

The walk through the gorse tunnel from the lower 9th green to the lower 10th tee


The view from the lower tee - Look how much is going on between the tee and the green.  Hard to focus on that 200 yard shot.


In the evening


The upper tee - the green is much more receptive looking than from the lower tee, but look how much landing area you actually have short of the green from the lower tee


One of my favorite photos from the course - the wide view from the tee


The hike down to the green from the upper tee - Is this you, Joe??


A view looking back on the 10th


And another


A shot of the green with 11 looming in the distance

[Guy Nicholson]

The 3rd green is one of the few spots where I'm lacking photos.  If anyone has a nice image of the green, I'd appreciate the support.  I've got a few approach shots to the skyline green, but I don't have any that will give you a sense of the contours or movement on the putting surface. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/guynick/969752895/sizes/l/in/set-72157601119850106/

[Jeff Doerr]

Here is 10 from the tee...



Here is an additional of 10 with 11 in the distance...

[Bob Jenkins]

Tim,

I remember standing on the upper tee the first time I played 10 and did not have the slightest idea as to club selection, what with the elevation drop, wind, and likely hard surface in front of the green. After much deliberation recall hitting a very thin 5 iron which took a few bounces and actually got to the green.

Your photos really tell a story about the differences from the two tees. On the lower tee the mound to the left front appears to be very close to the green but in reality it is about 30 yards short if I recall. From the upper tee the mound does not present a problem.  This hole has all kinds of options which make it all the more interesting.

Thanks again for posting all of this.

Bob

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It is funny that 1 is the only hole on the front nine I would note in a negative way as well I find the visual on the tee shot along with a blind second make for a less than well thought out opening hole on a resort course. I say this strickly from a pace of play point of view. I personally love the hole but one needs to have played it once to know the hole. I am a huge fan of Toms work here and love the course. I only wish I could play it more often.

[Tom Jefferson]

One of the keys to playing from the upper tee is to have some knowledge of how the ball reacts off the dune slope/right edge, as many balls are pushed that way by the often quartering wind...........most importantly when there is a rear cup location.

Play from the lower tee in the summer wind is played more directly into that wind, necessitating a low, bore-ing shot.

Shots short are safe, and sometimes a shot well played but strong rolls off the falling rear edge into the hazard.

Like #9, a hole with numerous subtleties.

Happy Fathers Day!!!!

Tom

[Tim Bert]

In the winter wind does the lower tee necessitate the use of the run-up area to hold the ball on the green for most players?  I would think this might be more intimidating that the summer wind for the first time player that doesn't realize there is so much room short of the green from this angle.

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:  Into the wind, from the lower tee you can have a driver to hit into #10.  I think that's more intimidating than when it's downwind.

The tee shot from the upper tee on 10, into a summer crosswind, is much more difficult to judge.  If you double-cross the tee shot, I've seen players hit it over #11 tee and over the cliff!  The host teaching pro Grant Rogers has that hole figured out, though ... he hits his "bunt driver" soft fade with a driver pretty much every time he plays the hole, and I've seen him make two birdies in the three times I've watched it.

I've even seen him do that on #11, starting it out over the cliff edge! 

[John Kirk]

#10 has one of the great greens on the course, and due to the long approach shot, it yields many mid- to long length putts.

I made one of the great 2s of my life there a few years back, throwing everything I've got into a punched 3-iron from the back tee, right into the teeth of a 20 mph wind.  The ball traveled on a line over the big hill guarding the right edge of the green, then reappeared rolling past the back pin placement and settling just off the green, where I sank a downhill 20 foot right-to-left breaker for the deuce.  I remember it as though it was yesterday.  A great moment, one that made me like I can really play this game.

In honor of Grant Rogers, I may have to pull out the bunny driver if the right wind comes up next time.  He says bunt; I call it the bunny.

[Cory Brown]

I played two days at Bandon, and Pacific this past February.  We had hardly a breath of wind and gorgeous weather.  There was even a short frost delay on the first day.  Did I miss out not getting to play in the wind, or should I be thanking my lucky stars that I was able to escape with a couple of rounds in the low 80's in my first attempt at each course.

[Peter Wagner]

Tim,

Come on already... I've been waiting for #11 for about a week now.   
Bring it baby.

- Peter

[Matthew Hunt]

A question for Tom, if Bandon was in a more accessible place and Mike gave you a design brief to build a course on the same land that could host the US Open what would you have done, would the routing have changed and is there any holes that would significantly change?

[Tom_Doak]

Matthew:

I might have turned the job down.

That's a way different assignment than what I had, so my approach would certainly have been different.  But I can't even begin to think about what we might have done under those circumstances ... I'm just glad I didn't have to.

Keep in mind -- to date, in the history of golf architecture, NO course has been designed from the start to host a U.S. Open and then actually hosted one.  (I never heard Chambers Bay talk about this objective in advance, although they may have thought about it ... I did hear Erin Hills talk about it, but apparently they're still going to have to make some big changes before they get the Open.)  Lots of courses have been built by unrealistic developers who told their architect to build a course that could host the Open ... with not so great results.  I'd prefer not to tilt at windmills, and if you don't know what that means, you need to read more.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom:

What a very quixotic response.   

BTW I love 10, both versions.  And I think it's a tribute to the designer that at least I for one am never disappointed which combo of 9 and 10 I get.  I mean that.  They're all great, each in their own way.

TH

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