[Ally Mcintosh]

I'm heading off to North Berwick this weekend so re-read this chapter in Simpson and Wethered's book last night... A few points came out of it that were of interest to me...

1. Simpson refers to the four outstanding courses of the area as Muirfield, North Berwick, Gullane and Archerfield. What ground was the Archerfield course on? Was it on the same ground that the new Dirleton and Fidra Archerfield courses are on?... Or maybe even The Renaissance Club?... Simpson notes that the course had already fallen in to disrepair at his time of writing

2. Simpson was also not a big fan of the changes to Muirfield (or perhaps just of Colt). He mentions that The Honourable Company would have been better served by using the duneland that it owns beside the current course... Is this the same duneland that The Renaissance Club are hoping to procure and get planning for a replacement 3 holes?

3. Simpson also refers to the ancient links at Musselburgh being "just twenty years the junior of St. Andrews"... What do you think he is referring to here?... The actual course itself or the fact that golf had been played over the land?... Musselburgh continue with the claim that they have the oldest course in existence although it is more widely accepted that there is no decisive proof which golf course in Scotland is oldest...

Thanks

[Tom_Doak]

Ally:

I will try to answer your questions as best I know.

1.  No one is really sure precisely where the old Archerfield course was ... it was most likely in the field near the clubhouse at Archerfield links, but it's possible some of it was on the ground of The Renaissance Club as well.  Through Archie Baird, The Renaissance Club did purchase the minute book of the old Archerfield club and plans to put it on display in their clubhouse.

2.  Yes, that's the same duneland, although it is not likely that Muirfield would have gotten way out to the point where we have planned 3 holes ... there is a LOT of duneland between the fifth hole at Muirfield and out there, enough for most of a full 18 holes.

3.  I assume the Musselburgh club was founded 20 years after the R & A and that's what the dates refer to -- even though the Honourable Company were founded ten years prior to the R & A, and they used the Musselburgh 9 holes as their home turf also.  There are no official "dates" for any of the courses themselves.

[BCrosby]

1. Simpson refers to the four outstanding courses of the area as Muirfield, North Berwick, Gullane and Archerfield. What ground was the Archerfield course on? ... Simpson notes that the course had already fallen in to disrepair at his time of writing

2. Simpson was also not a big fan of the changes to Muirfield (or perhaps just of Colt). He mentions that The Honourable Company would have been better served by using the duneland that it owns beside the current course...

First question - I would think you could check the real estate records for an answer. There ought to be recorded deeds in and deeds out involving the club. Though maybe real estate records are kept differently in Scotland. Even if you find the deeds, they won't tell you more than the approximate location of the course.

Second question - Very interesting that Simpson didn't like Colt's redo of Muirfield.  Joshua Crane thought the Colt version made Muirfield the best course in the world. Others seemed to like it, but countered that Crane had gone over the top and that it wasn't better than any number of other courses. That was MacK's view, for example.

But Simpson was the only "name" I've heard of who simply didn't like Colt's work. Very interesting guy that Simpson.

Bob

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thanks folks for your answers...

Your answer to No.3 makes sense Tom although the Musselburgh club themselves had moved away from the links by the 1920's if I'm not mistaken so it doesn't seem to quite fit with the way Simpson was relating the information...

With regards to Simpson not liking Colt's work, Muirfield isn't the only example... But I'm sure a lot of it was just devilry on the part of Simpson... I imagine that he took pleasure in aggravating some of his other architects... Some of them (Colt included) certainly had no time for Simpson...

Here is an interesting excerpt from a letter from John Morrison to Hugh Allison in 1949 (I do not have the original source reference unfortunately):

"P.S. I saw Tom Simpson at Sunningdale yesterday. He told me that Spain where he has been making some new courses and Switzerland are the only two civilised countries in Europe. I always thought he was a bit mad but now he appears to be completely 'bats'. He told me he is nearly eighty"...

and another:

"Gwen, Mary and I had a week at Hayling….Tom Simpson has excelled himself and made the Widow into the worst golf hole I have ever seen on a seaside links"

[BCrosby]

"I imagine that [Simpson] took pleasure in aggravating some of his other architects... Some of them (Colt included) certainly had no time for Simpson..."

Could you expand on that? I did not know that Colt disliked Simpson. In Simpson's defense, he might have been "a bit mad", but he wasn't always wrong.

Bob

[Ally Mcintosh]

Oh, this is based on very little and when I say aggravate, I really mean wind up for his own amusement... it is how I like to imagine him.

...Simpson was asked to make an inspection of Muirfield and wrote a report effectively belittling all the holes Colt had had a major involvement with as "featureless, by reason of their OBVIOUS and STRAIGHTFORWARD character... Now in Golf Course Design, the obvious thing is almost invariably the wrong thing"... He went on to say the holes in question had a "complete lack of subtlety" ...

I like the majority of what Simpson wrote...

Here's another quote from an unnamed letter:

"I well remember Tom Simpson and the late Stuart Paton re-bunkering a hole at Woking. They invited Tony Torrance and Cyril Tolley to play round and comment on the new hole. The players did not like it and T.S. and S.P. were delighted, they knew they had got something good. Had the verdict been favourable, Simpson would have rushed out and altered the scheme, he was ready to do so"

By the way, although I don't have original references for this material, it comes from a presentation that I was at that was delivered by Tom MacKenzie who is an admirer of Tom Simpson.

[BCrosby]

Ally - Fascinating. You note:

"...Simpson was asked to make an inspection of Muirfield and wrote a report effectively belittling all the holes Colt had had a major involvement with as "featureless, by reason of their OBVIOUS and STRAIGHTFORWARD character... Now in Golf Course Design, the obvious thing is almost invariably the wrong thing"... He went on to say the holes in question had a "complete lack of subtlety" ...

That explains a great deal about why Muirfield rankied so highly under Joshua Crane's ranking system. Courses that were "OBVIOUS and STRAIGHTFORWARD" gained points. Older, unremodeled links courses (think TOC, NB, Prestwick) - which were neither of those things - lost points. Need I mention that his rankings were extremely controversial in the day?

If there is a conversation from the Golden Age I would like to hear, it would be any afternoon at Woking when Paton, Low and Simpson were sitting around a table.

Bob

[Tony_Muldoon]

Ally the first two quotes are from the letters of Allison and Morrison printed at the end of Colt & Co.  We should talk about this subject, preferably at Baltray.


Bob I have been told that the club History of Woking is being revised for a reprint – it may be the next best thing that we’ll have to settle for.

[BCrosby]

Tony -

If the Woking book turns out well, let us know. I would love to own a copy.

Am I alone in thinking that Low's four or five pages on golf architecture in his Concerning Golf is as good as anything in the literature?  And whatever Simpson's idiosyncrasies (Waugh might have called it "charm"), he too wrote as well as anyone on gca subjects.  To think that those two along with Paton were Woking regulars...

Here's hoping the new book does them justice.


Bob     

[Paul_Turner]

I've got Simpson's report on Muirfield and it's hilarious, he certainly was a bit of a loose cannon.  But other than filling in quite a lot of bunkers and adding the central ones on 1 and 9, I don't think much was done from that report.  Certainly none of the major stuff (moving green sites) he proposed.

But later on, the 13th was changed by Simpson (not descibed in the report).

There was definitely a very strong rivalry and possibly bad blood between Colt&Co and Simpson (&Fowler?).

[BCrosby]

Paul -

When and why was Simpson asked to do a report on Colt's work at Muirfield?

Was there unhappiness with Colt's changes?

Bob

[Paul_Turner]

Bob

I'll have to check the date but it was several years later (1930s) and Colt's redo was around 1924 when the club decided to take in the new land.

I'm not sure why they asked for a report,  but it may have been in anticipation of the 1935 Open?

I did read some negative comments in a magazine after Colt made the big changes but I don't think it amounted to much....it would be interesting to read comments after the 1929 Open which Hagen won.
I know that Colt's 13th was derided.

[Bill_McBride]

Bob

I'll have to check the date but it was several years later (1930s) and Colt's redo was around 1924 when the club decided to take in the new land.

I'm not sure why they asked for a report,  but it may have been in anticipation of the 1935 Open?

I did read some negative comments in a magazine after Colt made the big changes but I don't think it amounted to much....it would be interesting to read comments after the 1929 Open which Hagen won.
I know that Colt's 13th was derided.

Isn't #13 the par 3 that goes back up into the hill?  Why would Simpson deride that hole, if that is indeed the hole in question?  Deep bunkers both sides of the green, and a green that stretches back about 30 yards.  Wonderful.....

[BCrosby]

Paul -

Colt's changes to Muirfield in '24 were seen as being very important by some. That's the reason for my questions about Simpson's report. Taylor and Crane, for example, saw the Colt changes as much needed improvements to an older links course. Both thought (Crane more explicitly than Taylor) that "improving" older links courses was a very good thing overall. Their take was that TOC, NB and others were showing their age, largely due to the rubber core ball. But for other reasons as well.

Colt at Muirfield was a model for what they hoped would be done to "fix" these older links venues. It didn't happen, of course. But it is now largely forgotten that some held up Colt's work at Muirfield as the bright shining light that would show the way to improving links courses in the future.

Simpson appears to have been adamantly opposed to these reformist ideas. He wanted a hands off policy with the older links courses. So I wonder if all of that mightn't have served as a predicate to some of his vitriol about Colt's work at Muirfield. The notion being that if Colt's work was highly praised, it would bode badly for the future of courses like TOC, NB, Prestwick and others of the same ilk.

None of which is to suggest that Simpson wasn't in fact an ornery cuss.

Bob

P.S. To change the subject slightly, it's never been clear to me why Muirfiield is generally viewed as a links course.

 

[Tony_Muldoon]

Bob

P.S. To change the subject slightly, it's never been clear to me why Muirfiield is generally viewed as a links course.

 

Played Muirfield with bunch of GCA guys last March; finest quality sandy links turf.  Apparently there are some fine sea views, but that's not where I was looking.

I've read Simpson giving off about the new ball and the need to design for it, I think Paul's onto something re the rivalry.

[Bill_McBride]

Bob Crosby says, "P.S. To change the subject slightly, it's never been clear to me why Muirfiield is generally viewed as a links course."

No trees?   

It certainly plays "linksy" but is quite a distance from the sea.  #5 is as close as one gets and I guess that's half a mile.  Perhaps it's "links" in the same way that Bandon Dunes and Sand Hills are considered "links," more for playing characteristics than being on actual "linksland."

[Mark Pearce]

It's a links because it is on linksland.  That is the sandy, relatively infertile land that often lies between sea and arable land in he UK.  I suspect that the sea was once much closer to the land on which the course is now built.   So far as I am concerned you can build a course that is not a links on linksland but you can't build a links course unless you have linksland.  I'd be fascinated to read more of Simpson and Low's comments - where can I find them?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Am I alone in thinking that Low's four or five pages on golf architecture in his Concerning Golf is as good as anything in the literature?  And whatever Simpson's idiosyncrasies (Waugh might have called it "charm"), he too wrote as well as anyone on gca subjects.  To think that those two along with Paton were Woking regulars...
   

Don't forget Bernard Darwin too...

I did read some negative comments in a magazine after Colt made the big changes but I don't think it amounted to much...

Well, Simpson did report that one of the Greeens Committee suggested that the money would have been better spent if thrown in to the sea.

Simpson appears to have been adamantly opposed to these reformist ideas. He wanted a hands off policy with the older links courses.
 

I'm not sure about that... Simpson did a lot of rework (more than most) at old Links courses. He just appeared opposed to anything that would soften their individuality I would have thought. He also famously showed restraint at Ballybunion by saying that he didn't want to change anything...

There was definitely a very strong rivalry and possibly bad blood between Colt&Co and Simpson (&Fowler?).

I wonder if Colt / Allison / Morrisson were slightly jealous of Simpson?... Simpson charged considerably more money for his services and found the Clients in many of the Landed Gentry looking for private courses...

[Paul_Turner]

There was definitely a very strong rivalry and possibly bad blood between Colt&Co and Simpson (&Fowler?).

I wonder if Colt / Allison / Morrisson were slightly jealous of Simpson?... Simpson charged considerably more money for his services and found the Clients in many of the Landed Gentry looking for private courses...
[/quote]

Ally

I'd like to know where you got the price/charging comparison, that would be very interesting to me (I think there is a comparison in "Colt and Co"somewhere).   I'd be suprised if Colt et al were jealous of Simpson since they too had top connections and built courses for the landed gentry (Lords, Dukes...) throughout Europe.   And many more courses too.

Well, Simpson did report that one of the Greeens Committee suggested that the money would have been better spent if thrown in to the sea

I had a quick look through the Simpson report last night...I didn't see this.  Is it in there?  Greens Committees...as clueless then as now.

[Paul_Turner]

Paul -

Colt's changes to Muirfield in '24 were seen as being very important by some. That's the reason for my questions about Simpson's report. Taylor and Crane, for example, saw the Colt changes as much needed improvements to an older links course. Both thought (Crane more explicitly than Taylor) that "improving" older links courses was a very good thing overall. Their take was that TOC, NB and others were showing their age, largely due to the rubber core ball. But for other reasons as well.

Colt at Muirfield was a model for what they hoped would be done to "fix" these older links venues. It didn't happen, of course. But it is now largely forgotten that some held up Colt's work at Muirfield as the bright shining light that would show the way to improving links courses in the future.

Bob

Do you have magazine/newspaper reports on the changes?  I've only seen some small snippets in Golf Illustrated.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Paul,

The information on the Greens Committee member was directly from the East Lothian chapter of Simpson's book... so we'll have to take Simpson's (albeit biased) word that it is true.

The information about the higher fees is again secondhand and comes from the Tom Simpson Society pages....

Ally

[BCrosby]

Paul - I don't have the details of the Colt changes, but I have some other things that might shed some light. Check your IM box.  Bob

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