[Matt_Ward]

In the April / May 2007 Met Golfer issue they published their top 50 layouts and I found the back issue quite fun to review. Some of the choices -- and omissions were quite interesting.

I'll comment more later after a few people have weighed in.

* * *

1). WF / West
2). Shinnecock Hills
3). Bethpage / Black
4). Baltusrol / Lower
5). NGLA

6). Quaker Ridge
7). GCGC
. Fishers Island
9). WF / East
10). CC of Fairfield

11). Plainfield
12). Ridgewood
13). Stanwich
14). Friar's Head
15). Maidstone

16). Atlantic
17). Westchester / West
18). Somerset Hills
19). Piping Rock
20). Mountain Ridge

21). Trump National / Bedminster
22). Hudson National
23). Century
24). Meadow Brook
25). Metedeconk National

26). Baltusrol / Upper
27). Hollywood
28). Essex County
29). The Creek
30). Canoe Brook / North

31). Sleepy Hollow
32). Deepdale
33). Hamilton Farm
34). Metropolis
35). Wykagyl

36). Fenway
37). Brooklawn
38). Tuxedo
39). Wee Burn
40). Forsgate / Banks

41). GC of Purchase
42). Bethpage / Red
43). Canoe Brook / South
44). Montclair
45). Old Oaks

46). Manhattan Woods
47). Nassau
48). Alpine
49). Fresh Meadow
50). Hackensack

What's interesting is the breakdown of course locations ...

Westchester area = 18 (includes Rockland and CT-area courses)

New Jersey = 17

Long Island = 15 (includes Fishers Island)

Only two bonafide public courses within the top 50? Bethpage Black & Red.

Three (3) courses alone are from Purchase, NY.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

We're fortunate to have so many great courses nearby.

Where's Sebonack ?   Where's Bayonne ?

Manhattan Woods ?   ?   ?

While many will debate the order, it's an impressive group

Out of curiosity, would you prefer to play Due Process or Manhattan Woods ?

Manhattan Woods or The Knoll ?

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

I'm quite of perplexed with the listing.

Clearly, Sebonack was left off because of the new-ness factor.

I would certainly have the layout in my personal top ten in the metro NYC area.

Manhattan Woods is in over its head. Hard to explain that inclusion and the same can be said for Canoe Brook / South over the likes of Montclair (#2 + #4 nines), to name just one other situation that causes me to shake my head.

If forced to choose between DP and MW -- I go with the former -- not by much but I see the Colts Neck layout as the better of the two.

One final thing -- I see Forsgate being much better than they have it for the overall rating and in NJ in general. Course has dramatically improved in the last few years.

Last thing -- I would take The Knoll (when they finally finish the work that's desperately needed) over MW.

[Jim Nugent]

Maybe it's just coincidence, but the list is top-heavy with Tillie designs.  3 of the top 4, and 5 of the top 9, if I have it right. 

[Phil_the_Author]

Jim,

9 of the top 50 are Tilly designs. That's nearly 1 in 5 in the area considered by many as containing the largest concentration of great courses in America...

[Dean Paolucci]

Clearly, Sebonack was left off because of the new-ness factor.

Can the same be said for Bayonne?

[Jim Nugent]

Who does the ratings for Met Golfer? 

[Steve Lapper]

I remember reading this issue and taking great issue with order of list and the omission of both Sebonack & Bayonne.

I also recall noting the same as Jim about the weight of Tillinghast at the top. I would attribute that, for the most part, with the density,strength, and lore of Tillie's work in the Metropolitan area. All of his grandest scale work is evident in this region and arguably his finest example of each par hole exists among the same. Surely, SFGC is a great Tillie and deservedly among his very best, yet it lacks the scale of a WFW, a Bethpage Black or even a Baltusrol Lower.

The folks over at the Met are generally predisposed to cite those aforementioned courses as the area's toughest tests and use the exhaustive competitive history conducted at these clubs as evidence of their superiority. I'm not necessarily agreeing with such an argument (and I don't think Matt or Pat share such a wholesale belief). The most interesting take would be the same list in 2011, after the Met has the chance to witness competitions at Friars Head, Sebonack and Bayonne....we shall see?


Pat...I would play 8-out-of-10 rounds at Due Process over Manhattan Woods (better course IMHO) and would split them even to reverse with an Uncle George restored Knoll.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

And Engineers is easily better than a couple of courses in the top 10

[Matt_Ward]

Robert Mercer Deruntz:

Since you opened the door -- what courses in the top ten do you see Engineers being better than ? Say it ain't so if you're thinking about the likes of Bethpage Black.

Steve:

Fair comments.

No doubt Sebonack and Bayonne would be included in any "revised" listing. I have to say that throwing Baltusrol / Lower that high in the pecking order is a bit much -- no doubt the varied champiosnhips, most notably the US Open being played there, makes a major impact with some people.

I also think that while WF / East is a fine course the reality in having big brother attract so much notice has been a positive spill over in that regard.

I woould not have WF / East in my personal top ten. I would also drop Bethpage Black a few spots simply because the movement recently is simply towards developing a more muscular layout with each change.

Have to add one further thing -- Canoe Brook / South is no where near the qualities of a Forsgate Banks or Alpine, to name just two other NJ layouts.

[Ed Oden]

In my opinion, Plainfield is superior to Baltusrol/Lower.  That's no slight against Baltusrol.  I just think Plainfield is that good.  If I was drawing up a list of places I could play every day, Plainfield would be very high on the list.  Great terrain, wide variety of holes, wonderful green contours, challenging yet loads of fun.

[Steve Lapper]

I'd wholeheartedly agree with both Matt & Ed.

 I'd go a step further and remove Stanwich placing itinto the bottom bracket, elevate Friars Head, add Engineers, and switch Maidstone and the Creek.

[Dean Stokes]

Clearly, Sebonack was left off because of the new-ness factor.

Can the same be said for Bayonne?

And Liberty National. Maybe they're not good enough to get on the list.

[Chuck Brown]

Surprises me to see The Creek listed in that position by the locals after Tom Doak made it one of his worldwide Gourmet's Choices...

[Dean Stokes]

I've never played Bethpage red. I have played the black. Most people I have talked to say the red is better than the black.

Is this true? If so, how is the black 40 spots above it. Is this what holding toonamints and gaining notoriety does for a courses ranking?

[Phil_the_Author]

Dean,

The Red is a fine course but in no way does it even begin to approach the Black.

There are 3 or maybe 4 holes on the Red that one would consider as outstanding. There are 4 holes on the Black that were listed as among the 500 greatest holes in the world by Golf Magazine in 2000.

The Red has two sets of paralell holes. 2 & 3 which are simple good holes and 8 & 9 which are somewhat better. Only 9 would be considered as somewhat difficult and challenging for the accomplished player.

The Black has two sets of Paralell holes. 10 & 11 are both as tough as they come and architecturally impressive. 15 & 16 are a step more difficult and challenging than those, with a number of players in the 2002 Open declaring it as the single most challenging par four on the planet.

The Red is on land that is mostly flat with, excluding the 5th, areas of minimal elevation changes.

The Black is carved out of hidden valleys and rising plateaus, the course filled with elevated tees and greens. Even the back nine where holes 10-13 are on level terrain, the routing of the holes require the talented player to execute on every single shot.

Playing the Red is like being in the ring with Sugar Ray Robinson. Playing the Black is fighting Muhammed Ali with Mike Tyson's punches.

Both courses are a pleasure to play and challenging in their own right. The Red course routinely beats up most players yearly in the Long Island Open. The Black beats up the greatest players in the world in the U.S. Open.

Finally, The Red has some nice looking holes, but the Black is filled with stunning vistas and memorable views. have you yet forgotten what it was to pick your ball out of the hole on the third green and then turn to see the 4th hole mounting first one plateau and then another with the massive bunkers framing it off in the distance? Admit it; it made you stop and breathe "Wow" to yourself.

You won't find that on the Red; but you will find a terrific course filled with challenges and fun. You will definitely want to play it again as well.

[Dean Stokes]

Phillip, thankyou for your reply. There were some nice vistas and some good views, maybe not stunning, but it was a drizzly day.

I thought there were many very good holes, however, I think many of the holes were way too long to either enjoy or play how they were supposed to play ( even with the modern technology).

For the angle of the green, #3 is now way too long at 220. #5 is too long to carry a second shot uphill to a green that slopes front to back. #9 you can hit your best tee ball and only be in the swale below the uphill so you have a 190 yard 2nd shot that is totally blind - not a good hole now.

I never played 10/11 as we jumped in front of a group late in the afternoon and my friend who plays there often said they are 'just two long boring par 4's' - I believe he may have misled me somewhat.

#12 is a bland hole as is #13. I think #14 is the worst hole on the course. The green is just so big for such a short hole and it just seems out of place.

#15,16 and 17 are obviously awesome. I didn't get to play #18 due to bad light but it looked very mediocre.

Perhaps the reason so many have told me the Red is better than the Black is purely from an enjoyment standpoint. The black is not for the feint hearted and not to be played from the back tees for the masses - that could also point to my lack of enjoyment that day. Maybe try again this Summer.

[Michael Mimran]

No Whippoorwill???  C'mon!

No way Golf Club of Purchase is better.  It's very nice, but the whip is a pretty special place that definitely deserves to be on this list.  A 5 on the doak scale.

Fenway should probably be moved  up a bit.

Here is the list with the doak scale (where applicable)

1). WF / West - DS - 9
2). Shinnecock Hills - 10
3). Bethpage / Black - 7
4). Baltusrol / Lower - 8
5). NGLA - 10

6). Quaker Ridge - 8
7). GCGC - 8
. Fishers Island - 7
9). WF / East - 6
10). CC of Fairfield - 4

11). Plainfield - 7
12). Ridgewood - 7
13). Stanwich - 6
14). Friar's Head - N/A
15). Maidstone - 7

16). Atlantic - 6
17). Westchester / West - 5
18). Somerset Hills - 7
19). Piping Rock - 6
20). Mountain Ridge - 5

21). Trump National / Bedminster - N/A
22). Hudson National - N/A
23). Century - 5
24). Meadow Brook - 5
25). Metedeconk National - 5

26). Baltusrol / Upper - 6
27). Hollywood - 7
28). Essex County - 5
29). The Creek - N/A
30). Canoe Brook / North - 4

31). Sleepy Hollow - 7
32). Deepdale - 7
33). Hamilton Farm - N/a
34). Metropolis - 4
35). Wykagyl - n/a

36). Fenway - n/a
37). Brooklawn - 5
38). Tuxedo - n/a
39). Wee Burn - 5
40). Forsgate / Banks - 6

41). GC of Purchase - n/a
42). Bethpage / Red - n/a
43). Canoe Brook / South - n/a
44). Montclair - n/a
45). Old Oaks - n/a

46). Manhattan Woods n/a
47). Nassau - 4
48). Alpine - n/a
49). Fresh Meadow
50). Hackensack - n/a

You can probably argue this list forever, so i'm not sure their is a point.  Just consider yourself lucky to live in a golf rich area.

A couple sleepers - Sunningdale, Montauk downs, Anglebrook, 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Mimran,

While we can always debate the order of the list and the question of whether or not clubs on the list should be removed or clubs off the list, added, I'm startled by the rankings based on the Doak scale.

Are you sure that Deepdale is listed as a 7 and Mt Ridge only a 5 on the Doak Scale ?

Perhaps Tom had a few too many Southsiders that day.

And, I like Dick Wilson golf courses, but, there's NO comparison, it's not even close ...... architecturally.

What's interesting about the Met area is the list of courses in the next 50.

While they're not as widely known as some of the first 50, there are a substantial number of terrific golf courses.  Some with impressive pedigrees.... architecturally

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Not to take anything away from GCGC or WF East, but Engineers reallyis that great .  I have only played WF East 3 or 4 times and think that it is the Red to Bethpage's Black.  However, I have played GCGC at least 50 times and am positive that Engineers has quite a few more world class holes, and overall,  is more worthy of a higher ranking. 
This list of the Met's top 50 is pretty funny.  There are some absolute great courses not listed and some mediocre ones that are highly ranked.  For some reason, exclusivity and club's fame has a lot to do with these rankings.
Bayonne, Liberty, and Sebonic were too new for a ranking.

[JNC Lyon]

This is a pretty classic list: the typically underrated courses remain underrated, while the courses with reputation get the higher ranking.  Not accurate, but certainly not surprising.

[Gerry B]

not surprised  - to each their own i suppose

iI  have some major problems with the list as is the case with most ranking lists

 most glaring error IMHO  would be baltusrol lower in the top 5.  which fight were they watching? higher ranked than NGLA / Maidstone / Fishers Island / and many others?

oh well!

[SPDB]

We can quibble about the relative strengths of some of these clubs, but I was pretty surprised about (1) the inclusion of Tuxedo and Manhattan Woods, and (2) the exclusion of Round Hill and, to a lesser degree, Blind Brook.

[Matt_Ward]

Frankly if anyone truly believes Bethpage Red is the second best public course in the Metro NYC area then they really need to sample the wide variety of top tier layouts that have come onto the scene within the last 15-20 years.

I like Bethpage Red for what it offers and it does deserve to be saluted. Just not at that HIGH a level IMHO.

Robert Mercer Deruntz:

Agree with you on the nature of how high WF / East is. I like the course a bunch but it's not top ten. Frankly, I'd rather play Fenway for the sheer enjoyment.

Gents:

Don't see the fanfare tied to Stanwich -- no doubt it can play tough but where is the compelling architecture to merit such a high position?

Also, concur on the CC of Purchase -- too penal and geared only towards the better player.

One other thing -- don't see how QR can be rated the better layout over Plainfield. In fact, Plainfield is the #2 course in all of NJ for me -- only behind PV.

[Michael Mimran]

I would like to see a list of the top 25 or 50 public courses based soley on architecture, nothing to do with other ammenities, within 50 or so miles of NYC.  In no particular order...

Bethpage Black
Bethpage Red
Ballyowen
Royce Brook
Garrison
Links At Shirley
Centenial
James Baird
Casperkill
The Knoll
Split Rock
Richter Park


hmm... I'll think of some more later.

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