[Mike Hendren]

I'm a little surprised when someone plays a reknowned course and immediately thereafter posts a critical comment.  Then again, I have lived my entire life in a culture where we say "bless his heart" when really meaning "what a dumb-@ss!"

At a minimum do we owe our hosts, their fellow members and club staff a grace period before posting negative comments about their course?

Just curious.

Mike

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:

Very interesting question; in fact one I myself posed several years ago.  My feeling was one makes his praise public and keeps his criticism private.  I think I also was raised to say "bless his heart" when I mean "what a dumbass" also, however.   Perhaps it's the Missouri  and Illinois routes of my otherwise California family.

In any case, when I raised this question before, I got quite an on-line ass-tearing.  Many berated me for defeating the purpose of the site, etc.  I then backed off quite a bit... especially when the most gracious of all hosts came in and said he didn't mind at all criticism of his course/club.

I never really bought it, though.  I still think it's pretty rude to one's host to accept their hospitality and then post criticisms in a public place.  I guess I just don't get it.

TH

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
You owe them more than a grace period. You can be critical in a positive fashion, you should never post negative comments.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike,
You owe them more than a grace period. You can be critical in a positive fashion, you should never post negative comments.

Jim - that was damn near exactly my take way back when.  I got rather roasted for it. 

TH

[JESII]

It bothers me more when a "critic" is asked to support their views and they become offended at the need.

Criticism should be welcome, so long as it can be constructive...which is not always the case.

[John Kavanaugh]

I see nothing wrong with posting exactly what you said to your host while still in his company.  What I can't stand are raters/people who say one thing to a host while penning secret balots of distaste in the comfort of their homes.

[Tom Huckaby]

I see nothing wrong with posting exactly what you said to your host while still in his company.  What I can't stand are raters/people who say one thing to a host while penning secret balots of distaste in the comfort of their homes.

I'd agree with that also.  I believe that's common courtesy as well though... no?

TH

[Mike Hendren]

I see nothing wrong with posting exactly what you said to your host while still in his company.  What I can't stand are raters/people who say one thing to a host while penning secret balots of distaste in the comfort of their homes.

Entirely consistent with your Midwestern sensibilities.  I mean that as a compliment.

[John Kavanaugh]

Most raters find it common courtesey to lie to the face of hosts/pros.  It really makes everyones life so much easier to talk a half point higher than your rate.  Even me, the consumate asshole, would tell people that it is in my personal top 100 knowing that I haven't even played 100 courses.

[Mike Hendren]

John,

Do you tell your dinner host that the ribs were a little dry?

Mike

[John Kirk]

I have many thoughts about this.  Here's one:

I have found that it is difficult to make an authoritative judgement based on one round at a good course.  I have played Crystal Downs three times.  After round one, I spent the entire evening bellowing "overrated!" to my playing partners.  After  round two the next day, a day I had a spectacular ball striking round, but fell apart on the greens late in the day, a day etched in memory, my sentiments were, "Well...gee...I uh, not bad."  After round three last year, I had butterflies of excitement before and during the round, and felt as though I was golfing in heaven.

I have played Winged Foot West once, and thought it a highly overrated experience, a simple parkland design on flat terrain with pushed up greens and fronting bunkers.  I shot my mouth off here several times to that effect.  I imagine with repeat plays I would begin to see the nuance and strategy, the ebb and flow, and begin to understand why it is hallowed ground for tournament golf.

At a minimum, one should think carefully before offering a critique, and it's best to compare and contrast in postive terms.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Do you tell your dinner host that the ribs were a little dry?

Mike

No...a couple of years ago I did get some bad ribs at Applebees and my wife insisted that I not complain and I agreed.  The waitress came and asked why I didn't eat my ribs and I told her that I had promised my wife not to complain and please bring the check.  After the manager arrived and I continued to refuse to complain and just pay so I could leave they refused to charge me under any circumstance.  I had no choice but to accept the free meal and gave the waitress $20 for the trouble.

My problem is that I wear my emotions on my sleeve and the difference between happiness and disgust is not a fine line.  If I have ever told any of my wonderful hosts from this site that I loved their course they can be assured that I meant it.

[Bart Bradley]

I vote for diplomacy as well.  I played a top 100 course last fall and found it disappointing.  The course has been discussed here several times and I have chosen to hold my tongue.  I was a guest at the club and my host does not deserve to find out that I was being critical behind his back.  I also would not jump in and make up positive remarks either --just to garner favor...which seems to happen here sometimes.

Bart

[John Kavanaugh]

I think I also was raised to say "bless his heart" when I mean "what a dumbass" also, however.   Perhaps it's the Missouri  and Illinois routes of my otherwise California family.

My mom always uses that phrase, and her dad was originally from Missouri before settling in Texas.  Interesting link.  

There are a couple people on here who always make it a point to say that one or more of their playing companions hated one of my courses and would never return.  I never understood why that had to be added to almost every post they make about my course.  I appreciate Jim's approach better!!

Kelly,

It could be worse, they could say that their Dad would hate it.

[Tom Huckaby]

Good one, John.

Anyone who would say that would be rather rude indeed.  I certainly never said such a thing myself.

But nice try.

TH

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not quite on topic, but years ago we had a thread on double entendre course compliments, things like "best of its kind", "I learned a lot from this course", etc. 

I doubt many would be offended if you simply said their course was "just outside" your personal top 100 list, while declining to be specific about teh fact that about 1000 courses tie for 101st spot.....

[Tom_Doak]

Diplomacy is great.  The only problem is that one never gets to the truth ... I guess that's why you still have countries that hate each other generations later, yet continue to pursue diplomacy.

What you're really saying is that most people would be better off not being critics.

[Kalen Braley]

I think its important to be a gracious guest and show appreciatian when invited to play somewhere.

As my mom always said, there is good and bad in just about everything and I don't see why its a problem to focus on the good during the round and make things pleasurable.  And if your host directly asks for what would you improve upon, I see no problem in making a few suggestions.  But even these can be done in a very positive manner without belittling the course.

We all take pride in our home course, and we probably are all just a little biased towards it...so put yourself in thier shoes and don't hammer away on the negative things because chances are your host is already aware of them.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

Do you tell your dinner host that the ribs were a little dry?

Mike

My problem is that I wear my emotions on my sleeve and the difference between happiness and disgust is not a fine line.  If I have ever told any of my wonderful hosts from this site that I loved their course they can be assured that I meant it.

JK,

Fair enough.

Does this mean you have been invited to play somwhere and flat out told them you didn't like the course and thought it needed mucho work before you came back?

[Peter Wagner]

This is a tough question.  If it were just the people on this message board then I would say "Frank commentary" because that's one of the things we come here to read.  However, this isn't a private club, it's semi-private with thousands lurking over our shoulders and because of that I would opt for diplomacy.

A few weeks ago I was invited by the SoCal chapter of the PGA to play Wilshire CC for a monday tourney.  It was really nice of Wilshire to offer the course and we had a fun day.  A few days later I had written a lengthy post with pictures to illustrate my feeling that Max Baer routed Wilshire way too tightly.  As I was scanning my post for errors and it occurred to me how disrespectful this would be to post it in public and I deleted my unsent post.

Like I said, tough question.

- Peter

[Jeff_Brauer]

Diplomacy is great.  The only problem is that one never gets to the truth ... I guess that's why you still have countries that hate each other generations later, yet continue to pursue diplomacy.

What you're really saying is that most people would be better off not being critics.

And yet.....everyone is a critic. 

As most gca's will tell you from hearing constant critiques, its hard for most golfers to be a critic of a course much beyond how you played and how a course affects or suits your game.  Rising above that is a true art and/or skill.  That alone gives you reason to beg off any serious comments if your host or anyone else asks.

As far as countries hating each other, I wonder if anyone now knows what the original disputes were about?

[Jim_Kennedy]

"This is a tough question." (generic)

Not really, I'm sure your (generic)  host (generic)  didn't invite you to come and play for the purpose of assessing the merits of the architecture in a public forum.

[Dan Herrmann]

Just be a gentleman, with all that entails.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Do you tell your dinner host that the ribs were a little dry?

Mike

My problem is that I wear my emotions on my sleeve and the difference between happiness and disgust is not a fine line.  If I have ever told any of my wonderful hosts from this site that I loved their course they can be assured that I meant it.

JK,

Fair enough.

Does this mean you have been invited to play somwhere and flat out told them you didn't like the course and thought it needed mucho work before you came back?

I have never been to a course and had it be much worse than what I expected.  Every course that I can think of that I didn't like I still return to because they remain cheap.  I am lucky in being a freelance critic that I am not beholden or represent anyones opinions besides my own.  Lawsonia is a perfect example in that I think it is the most overrated course on any Golfweek list yet I will still return because of the ease of access and price.   Pacific Dunes, Tobacco Road, Barona, Rustic...etc, etc....I may not think they are as great as others say but I still believe they are worth the trip.

I am sitting here racking my brain and can not come up with one architectural recommendation to improve any course I have ever played.  I am so out of touch with the mentality of the average golfer that I don't have a clue on how any change would benefit anyone but me.  Even that bastard Fazio tee on the 16th at Rustic is probably good for their demographic.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

Do you tell your dinner host that the ribs were a little dry?

Mike

My problem is that I wear my emotions on my sleeve and the difference between happiness and disgust is not a fine line.  If I have ever told any of my wonderful hosts from this site that I loved their course they can be assured that I meant it.

JK,

Fair enough.

Does this mean you have been invited to play somwhere and flat out told them you didn't like the course and thought it needed mucho work before you came back?

I have never been to a course and had it be much worse than what I expected.  Every course that I can think of that I didn't like I still return to because they remain cheap.  I am lucky in being a freelance critic that I am not beholden or represent anyones opinions besides my own.  Lawsonia is a perfect example in that I think it is the most overrated course on any Golfweek list yet I will still return because of the ease of access and price.   Pacific Dunes, Tobacco Road, Barona, Rustic...etc, etc....I may not think they are as great as others say but I still believe they are worth the trip.

I am sitting here racking my brain and can not come up with one architectural recommendation to improve any course I have ever played.  I am so out of touch with the mentality of the average golfer that I don't have a clue on how any change would benefit anyone but me.  Even that bastard Fazio tee on the 16th at Rustic is probably good for their demographic.

J/K

I think you missed the point, but it may have been because I wasn't clear enough.

If your host asks you during or after the round how you liked the course, how will you answer if you didn't like the course?  Will you tell them the course was no good.

Or will you cop out as you accuse others on here doing and say something nuetral/generic like "its what I expected" or "can not come up with one architectural recommendation"?

Kalen

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()