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BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm just curious...
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2008, 10:28:48 AM »
Bill McB -

I think you are missing some important stuff. A really close reading of your excerpt leads me to think that it's "highly likely" that it CBM did the routing for Pensacola GC. But that's just scratching the surface. If you read between the lines to get what the author was really trying to say, you will agree with me that it is "not inconceivable" that CBM did the routing for the Fernandina Beach Public Golf Course too.

Trying to be helpful,  Bob ;)



   

Doug Ralston

Re: I'm just curious...
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2008, 11:01:34 AM »
Damn Merion;

I wish I may never hear the name or Merion again!

Doug [The man without a golf course  :D]

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm just curious...
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2008, 11:37:58 AM »
I'd echo folks like Tony.  I've already posted a basic answer to my intentions of not reading the daily diatribes of Merion threads, on one of those threads weeks ago.    And, they have since been so convoluted, I can't even find that reply of mine among the piles of bickering and multiple threads.

In a nutshell... I still scan or keep my eye open for someone to start a thread that actually appears it might have the potential to actually inform us of something new and credible on a factual basis of the origins of Merion.  I still retain the inclination that while interesting, David's piece is merely interesting, informs there might be more collaborative involvement by CB-Whig, and nothing I can comprehend has altered the basic history of Wilson and the committee input and responsibility for the beginnings of Merion, its design, and construction that led to an evolution of design features added over time to make it the highly acclaimed course it was and is.

When I see the hysterical posts about "I'm through with this website, sayonara" and such, I then scan the landscape of Merion threads to try to see; what now?  And, I find the bickering has merely set off another huff, and nothing new seems to have actually been advanced in meaningful factual terms, from my perspective. 

I look into threads on that basis to see what happen for two somewhat conflicting reasons. 
One, because I've met most of the players, except Morrison, and care about them as I have found them all to be good people whom I really feel bad about them getting so emotionally invested and disappointingly stooping to the insult game. 
And two, it is like looking at the train wreck, and myself being too weak to fully avoid looking at the carnage. 

But, to use Pat Mucci's method for the following, I'd like to respond to specific statements...


Interesting thread, and it basically completely proves why Wayne Morrison was probably right to hang his "final straw" thread on here the other day. Why should we even think about spending the time to do the legwork and the analysis of all these MCC archives and such and then write a comprehensive report from the club's meeting minutes archives to put it ON HERE if no one has the interest to take the time to read it and consider it?

I think you are making an assumption of 'no one has the interest to take the time to read it and consider it'.   Many have read the issue for YEARS!  Many, like myself have concluded nothing in the basic history has changed.  But, they will look in to see if you folks actually do have something new and relevant.  And, you all did come up with some minutia that was new.  Yet, the basic known history doesn't seem to be changed appreciably to declare a great historical mistake was made.  But you Tom, and Wayne, don't seem to have the confidence to just put your information and facts up in a thread without the temptation to smack down in vitriolic terms the opposition.  Which also leads the opposition (Moriarity and supporters) to also put down an unwarranted amount of smack mixed with their rebuttals.  Who first started it has really become irrelavant to most of us, I suspect.  All of the debatants didn't seem to give the peanut gallery (the rest of the GCA.com readers), enough respect that we can read and comprehend facts and narratives and come to our own conclusions; no different in process than who we are going to vote for in elections.  And, like the annoying polititians, you all have lost the plot and have gotten so wrapped up in the smackdowns, that you all lost perspective of the issue, and understanding that people will come to their own conclusions despite the vitriol, not due to one or the other's reply is more vitriolic or laced with insults and put-downs.  So, if you don't want to do the legwork and put your conclusions on here because you don't respect the audience, fine.  But, don't blame the audience for being turned off because of the vitriol, and then say they are not worthy to read your POV.

I think Wayne is right, we'll do it and put it into Merion's archive for THEIR record and perhaps on the USGA's new Architecture Archive site. Maybe some "serious researcher" ;) will want to see it in either place about once every ten years. 

And, if some serious researcher does have to go to the trouble to see it every ten years in obscure archives, so be it.  I assume that researcher will then either put his findings in his own book with an audience of about 200 people world wide (if that is why he is researching) or file it in his mind for his own personal knowledge and inject it in some conversation at some old fossil cocktail party to impress other folks know how erudite he is on this obscure subject, which seems a sad audience of disinterested club socialites, indeed. 

As for most on here it's probably better to go back to the type of thread that discusses in quick bites whether Erica Blasberg is the hottest little chicklet on the LPGA Tour this year. That seems to be about all most on here can handle these days. If about the only person we'd be doing this for is David Moriarty and his ramped up and new found curiosity about Macdonald or Merion or whatever, it's probably more appropriate if he does it himself, including coming over here and spending about ten years at it, as we have! 

Again, I think you sell the GCA.com community a bit short.  But, you have a point as far as furthering the discussion on the basis you all have conducted it.  You could gun it out in private on the streets of Philly, let DAvid satisfy his own curiosity at his own expense and allow him to post his POV or conclusions, and let the rest of us consider what he'd like to share.

If you ask me there are probably less than a handful of really serious researchers on this website, whatever that means anyway. I've been on here from the beginning and it definitely is not the same as it once was---not even close. I guess it just proves that all good things do come to an end, and they probably need to, including GOLFCLUBATLAS.com.

Perhaps the discussion isn't the same as it once was, because those of us who have been on here since the beginning have basically heard all the same old notions, histories, etc., and not much is new anymore.  But, we can't (or shouldn't) manufacture "new history" for the sake of keeping it interesting as opposed to sharing new facts or information to be 'considered'.  If we don't have anything new to consider, then what else is there to turn to except current events and such?  Honestly, while some of the stuff on here wanders into the inane and irrelavant, we still come up with new courses, archies, developments, techniques, ideas, that are worth discussion between posts on LPGA fashion tips.  Again IMHO, you shouldn't sell the audience short, nor be the one to determine IF:

 " I guess it just proves that all good things do come to an end, and they probably need to, including GOLFCLUBATLAS.com"
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Peter Pallotta

Re: I'm just curious...
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2008, 11:54:18 AM »
Just a small point/point of few.

If I'm not mistaken, David presented his findings (i.e. his research and sources and analysis) to this website for the first time, and as a fait accomplis, in his "My Opinion Piece" that Ran posted. After that, everyone who was interested got their first chance to question both his sources and his analysis.  Why aren't Tom and Wayne allowed to present their conclusions (including new sources) in the same way? 

Peter

   

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm just curious...
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2008, 12:28:21 PM »
I'm not sure what a 'serious researcher' is either.  Is that like a 'serious golfer'? Sounds like no fun to me.

Now knowing some of the guys here are lawyers. It would be interesting to know more about the contributors. Maybe Ran can ask people to describe them themselves in 1-3 words when they sign up and this can be put under their name on the left.

e.g We all know Tom Doak is a golf architect and author. When we read his comments, we take this into account and give him the appropriate respect.

Is this a good idea?

Scott
(Golf architect – In training....)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm just curious...
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2008, 01:02:04 PM »
Scott,

Interesting comparison!  I guess you can be a serious researcher, and yet a very, very bad one........

Perhaps Brad Klein or Tom Doak or Phillip Young can answer, but were there any generally accepted standards for level of research (like having at least one corroborating document to back up any other before quoting it) that applied when you reached a published book effort?  Who imposed it (publisher with strict guidelines?)

Do history schools have sort of an ethics guidelines for what constitutes "good" (or serious) research?

I gather that DM's original piece, posted here, really needed to meet no particular standard.  It should probably be viewed as such, and in fact, David has several disclaimers in his original piece about not being a finished product.  For that matter, his opening remarks show respect for Merion, even if he goes on to try to amplify or even alter their history.  He has been accused of not respecting Merion, but I don't think thats the case.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: I'm just curious...
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2008, 01:37:43 PM »
I think the point George was trying to make is that the basis of the thread was lost in all the bickering. Why would anyone, including golf writers, historians, authors, wade through the reams of crap to find the  basic discussion? If I want to be in that much pain I'll just shove a stick in my eye.

As far as levels of research just because someone says they are researcher, or has spent hours delving through files, does not make them serious about it. Just as a person who spends hours in the kitchen isn't always a serious cook. This goes especially for people who research and don't share their findings. A Bob Labbance says, "They are hoarders not historians."

Sadly to say, there is some very poor work put forth here as serious and accurate research. I've found a number of mistakes on threads and course descriptions. I'm not the only one.

Anthony


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