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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
In reading Pat's "personal agenda" thread and seeing Pat Brockwell response I would ask....will the free enterprise system eventually put most committee run clubs out of business or at least put them in the hands of professional management with no committees.  Many may think i am crazy and yes there will always be a few but over the last 20 years it has become a much more competitive environment and committees just cannot do it. So many small towns in America have the local country club that has been run by committee for years, new club comes to town....runs a new competing club as a business, ...different initiation concept......for profit instead of the old non profit corp.....better purchasing....
I belong to such a club and this will be a critical year for our committees and how they have functioned in the past....
As some of you know Golf digest will have such an article coming out soon....club governance is killing private clubs IMHO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2008, 09:07:13 PM »
While it may be the case in many instances the committees are not doing a good job, I personally prefer belonging to a club that is owned by its members rather than a corporation.  In this way you get the ideal alignment between the club and its governing bodies - with the exception of hired management.  And you don't get situations where the club is doing things that are not in the best interests of the members - including, in the extreme, selling off the club to real estate developers (not that this is likely to happen in many places in the US given the current state of the market).

Many of the problems can be dealt with by the Board hiring professional management to run the club on a day-to-day basis.  Committees can then oversee certain areas, such as the course, clubhouse, membership, etc.  The board and committees should then set the strategic direction but not meddle in the daily operations.  "Nose in and fingers out" as they said in my Corporate Directors course.

After all corporations are run by a board and its committees which is the same structure as a golf club.  Some of the biggest problems with corporations is when there is a misalignment of interests between management, board and shareholders.  When these three parties are one and the same there are rarely governance issues.   At least with member owned clubs the board/committees are actually shareholders and should have the proper motivation and the committees are a subset, or at least report to the board.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2008, 09:13:52 PM »
Wayne,
As I stated...there will be exceptions....and I feel the same as you if and when it is working......but I keep seeing more and more examples of it failing.  Why?  Competition.......the make-up of the future member will decide the fate of the private club model we now have.....I hope the model you mention prevails but I have my fears....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Wagner

Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2008, 09:58:13 PM »
Mike,

You raise an interesting question: should private clubs hire an outside company to run everything without interference?  I think the answer would vary depending on the level of the club.

From my very limited experience I have seen that the golf committee items are the easiest to solve and the food & beverage committee issues are the toughest.  In my opinion the golf course is the most important asset of any club so I would NOT outsource that one ever.  The clubs green committee and super need to learn to work together to grow good grass - it's just not that tough.

F&B is tough because EVERYONE is a food expert at every meal.  One mistake and Mrs. Crabgrass is all over your highly paid chef and she's bitching and wagging her finger.  Doesn't matter how good you are all it takes is one screw up and suddenly a whole group is pissed.  F&B is an area that could be farmed out.  For a while I thought about contacting the Four Seasons corporate office to pitch them on creating a new product (CC management) and allowing our club to be the test case.  We backed away from that but I think the idea has merit.

It would be hard to outsource the Finance Committee and Legal Committee because you need member CPAs and lawyers that are around the club weekly and on top of current events.  Besides, here's an area where each club saves tons of money with the donated time of their members.

I understand your underlying point about the slowness of committees but one of the real benefits you get back is increased member involvement.  Our club is a good example, right now we have about 50 members that serve at the committee level.  Most of these members in turn become disciples in spreading the word of change and this in turn helps to get member buy-in on many issues.  I don't know how you would outsource that.

On the other hand, it would be tremendously freeing to have an American Golf style management group running everything.  No committees, just go play golf and drink a drink and go home.  That sounds pretty good right now.  I think it could  work but you might lose some personality as a club.

You are right that the management company would be more efficient but they would have to be REALLY efficient to replace my 50 professional consultant members that currently work for free.

Sorry, rambling answer to a good question.

- Peter


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2008, 10:07:20 PM »
Peter,
I am not a management company type of guy.  nor am I saying that is the way to go.  I am saying in the future there will be more private clubs that are for profit ventures owned by an individual or a group and they provide the club atmosphere in a competitive environment.  We already see it in many of the upscale developments...around here a good example would be Reynolds Plantation ot The cliffs properties....and with most of the old clubs your initiation is gone once you join...with the new products...not that way....and as mobile as society has become that will be important....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Wagner

Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2008, 10:23:00 PM »
Mike,
Sorry I missed your point.
The Quarry in La Quinta California is private and they sort of did just as you are suggesting: they voted to have a dictator style manager make all the decisions.  It works really well and the members are very happy with that form of government.

It would be tough to imagine a business plan where you or I do a start-up company that builds a golf course and runs it for profit.  Very few of these would ever make a profit let alone a return on investment.  In a falling economy we will likely see deals as poorly run clubs get sold for cents on the dollar and then yes your idea might work.

I know courses with homes on them get bashed here but that has proven to be the best business model for building profitable golf courses (i.e. the course loses money but home sales make up for it).  This has allowed us to build tons of new courses that would not have been built otherwise.  Oops, different topic!

- Peter
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 10:38:40 PM by Peter Wagner »

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2008, 10:50:10 PM »
I'm inclined to agree with you Mike.

Around here, it seems as if the only clubs that can afford to be run by member committees are the ones that are flush with cash.

It's pretty clear to me that board members are more likely to make decisions based on how they want their club to appear to outsiders or prospective members than on what's actually likely to be successful.

At my club that's been a path to financial "difficulties."

At the "A" club in town, they simply con't have this problem because they have the money to cover up the mistakes. And if they do run into trouble, none of the members are is willing to admit they can't afford to pay the assessment.

At my club, a $300 assessment has people heading for the exits.

These members want cost certainty above all else, and there's no possibility that a traditional member-run club can provide that.

Ken

Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Michael Powers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2008, 11:51:35 PM »
Why a member at a private club would ever want to be on a committee is beyond me.  Pay your initiation, dues, minimums, etc., all to waste your time to discuss the finer points of golf course maintenance with other people like you who don't know what they are doing, bliss.

The problems with committees at private clubs is that they never know what to spend their limited funds on.  The house committee wants new carpeting in the clubhouse.  The pool committee wants new awnings for the pool, the greens committee wants additional funds so they can get their stimp readings up.  The tennis committee wants to upgrade their surfaces.



HP

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2008, 12:24:03 AM »
Benevolent dictatorship seems a more simple and enjoyable way to belong to a club. 

The committee structure makes a clear vision of a clubs direction very difficult as continuous compromise leads to mediocrity.  Factions form and discension follows.  This is all to often a recipe for decline and failure. 

Give me a strong leader with a vision of where he/she wants to  go and let me get back to trying to make putts!

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2008, 06:44:08 AM »
I tend to agree with Mike. The member-run club with committees that I used to belong to is about to run itself into the ground because it spends loads of money on ridiculous projects that most members don't care about. However, my current club is run by a management company. The course is the typical one built as a part of a housing development. Of course, the course got the worst land so the course is not great. So, the club has a hard time attracting members and has been forced to lower the prices for membership dramatically. The service in the F&B is really poor so most members don't use it, which makes it a big drain of funds.

I wonder why we don't see more old line clubs turning into golf clubs or new just-golf clubs sprouting up. In any city there are too many good restaurants for a club to compete with. Plus, there are entertainment districts that those restaurants generally have a proximity advantage that the club does not. Also, I don't have time (nor does the wife/kids want me to) hang around the club for an hour or two after my round eating/drinking with the guys. I plan my round, settle up the bets, and head home. People rarely use tennis courts at clubs. While pools may be used a lot, I imagine they are a significant drain on funds. The golf course is the real asset and I think some developers would figure that out.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2008, 08:17:39 AM »
Steve nails it. The culture and purpose of private clubs are changing before our eyes. I don't understand all things driving those changes, but there is no doubt they are happening.

The thing that has changed the least is the golf. But everything around it - the pools, clubhouses, food and beverage, tennis, etc. - are all heading off in new directions.

Scaling back to becoming a pure golf club might make sense in theory, but it is very hard to do. The disruptions it causes can kill a club.

Bob     

Peter Wagner

Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2008, 08:34:30 AM »
Benevolent dictatorship seems a more simple and enjoyable way to belong to a club. 

Give me a strong leader with a vision of where he/she wants to  go and let me get back to trying to make putts!

W.H.,
I agree with you wholeheartedly.  The trick would be in finding one person the members would allow to rule them.

Mike,
From an investment standpoint, this is almost like taking a public company private.  There are two cases where it may make sense to do this: a) in the case where a club has failed financially due to poor management; and b) where a club is okay financially but has more value run a different way.

- Peter

Peter Wagner

Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2008, 08:36:22 AM »

Scaling back to becoming a pure golf club might make sense in theory, but it is very hard to do. The disruptions it causes can kill a club.

Bob     

Bob,
Yes, but a guy can dream can't he?
- Peter

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2008, 08:50:38 AM »
An interesting topic, I have no experience as to how the North American clubs are run, but I believe all clubs have a fundamental problem which starts and ends with the membership. Apathy – this decimating disease spreads like wildfire and can render clubs ineffective within days.

Committees are elected form a list of interested parties, however are there enough Members interested to spare some of their precious time to sit on these Committee, how many have to stay on board because insufficient interest at the end of their term – it can be a thankless task.

The UK has Club Secretaries/Managers, while there are some good and high efficient Ladies and Gentlemen who run a tight ship, many fall by the way side due to lack of assistance (perhaps due to tight budgets). Letters and certainly e-mails never get acknowledged let alone answered. It is classic Catch 22 – you need to answer your incoming mail whether electronic or standard mail, potential visitors who could help assist on improving revenue uptake are being ignored and perhaps seeking alternative venues to play.

These clubs have not enough income to pay a Management Company to take overall control.

As for Management Companies, on the most part they are not part of the club they are first and foremost part of the outside MANAGEMENT and don’t always have the same inner drive to work for the good of the other Members.

I for one do not believe in outside involvement, you automatically take a chunk of revenue and remove it outside the club in the form of payment for their services. Also you have created whether you like it or not a potential problem of Them and Us syndrome i.e. it might be good for the Club, but is it what the Members actually want?

The answer, if there is one is to start on breaking down the Apathy. Perhaps every member will be expected to sit on one Committee, once every so many years (like jury service – expected as part of ones duties). I have been in clubs that have re-elected the same people year on year to sit on the various Committees due to total lack of interest, then whispers start spreading about how the club is being run – small pockets of discontentment, but no one wants the responsibility to try and change the status que.

IMHO Clubs should be run by the local Members who know the people and region well, perhaps Members should be asked to contribute a little more – but not in the form of Money. Clubs need to be run as a business but that should not stop them putting their membership interests to the forefront. One thing I have been very keen on for years is for facilities or local activities to be made available for No golf players, however some Clubs in the UK are still believers in the Victorian Age and Gentleman Only.

Beat the Apathy Card and the world is your oyster, but don’t then give the pearl to an outside company. Fresh blood and ideas from fellow members is what is required

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2008, 09:36:34 AM »
I think some are missing my point.  I am not speaking of handing existing clubs to management companies.  I am saying that in the future many of our children will not join our clubs and our clubs will face competition from a model that is developed for just that purpose.  For example, I can go to Reynolds Plantation in Georgia and buy a lot....now I understand this is a RE development....but the golf is separate.....after purchasing a lot I can join the club for around 60,000 to 90,000 and pay dues.....initiation is refundable...the club is run by a private enterprise and it is maintained at a very high level....no committees just a good sold company running a country club operation.....NOT A MANAGEMENT COMPANY....and this model will continue as new clubs evolve.....Face it.....many of our member run clubs are in trouble and don't even know it.....it never shows up when thiongs are on the upswing....a downswing????let's see....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2008, 09:50:08 AM »
Mike I don't see a huge difference in whether its a management company, a private enterprise or the developer.  While this may be the solution, the 'club', whatever form it may take, must produce some kind of profit from the operation.  Those funds need to come from operations somewhere.  A true club that operates separatley need only produce  breakeven income. 

We still get back to the catch -22 of the management model producing income for itself and having club facilities suffer, or the committee model where the clubs inability to make solid decisions lead to mediocrity and a diminishing product. 

The next obvious question arises as to whether a model exists where the club can be solvent and attractive to prospective members while not having to provide a profit to an outside entity. 

Does this exist?  Because in direct respons eto your question, no very few clubs can effectively survive committee governance.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 04:27:45 PM by W.H. Cosgrove »

Peter Wagner

Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2008, 12:33:06 PM »
I think some are missing my point.  I am not speaking of handing existing clubs to management companies.  I am saying that in the future many of our children will not join our clubs and our clubs will face competition from a model that is developed for just that purpose.  For example, I can go to Reynolds Plantation in Georgia and buy a lot....now I understand this is a RE development....but the golf is separate.....after purchasing a lot I can join the club for around 60,000 to 90,000 and pay dues.....initiation is refundable...the club is run by a private enterprise and it is maintained at a very high level....no committees just a good sold company running a country club operation.....NOT A MANAGEMENT COMPANY....and this model will continue as new clubs evolve.....Face it.....many of our member run clubs are in trouble and don't even know it.....it never shows up when thiongs are on the upswing....a downswing????let's see....

Mike,
I'm laughing at myself for taking this many posts to understand your point.  Okay I think I see where your going.  I agree that the current committee setup has flaws but your idea that a "private enterprise" that is not a management company will be able to find enough profit is also flawed.  Reynolds Plantation is a real estate play and when the last house gets sold I would guess the members will be offered a sweetheart deal to take over.  The real estate developer will want to move on to the next thing and there is no money to be made running a private golf course.

Now I could be very interested in buying a financially injured private club, changing the business model and relaunching as a semi-private or public.  You might have a shot at profit on something like that.

- Peter

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2008, 07:41:57 PM »
Steve nails it. The culture and purpose of private clubs are changing before our eyes. I don't understand all things driving those changes, but there is no doubt they are happening.

The thing that has changed the least is the golf. But everything around it - the pools, clubhouses, food and beverage, tennis, etc. - are all heading off in new directions.

Scaling back to becoming a pure golf club might make sense in theory, but it is very hard to do. The disruptions it causes can kill a club.

Bob     

Bob,

I'm interested in hearing your expanded thoughts on this...

How do you see the culture and purpose of private clubs changing?  And, in what new directions do you see everything around golf heading (pools, clubhouses, tennis, F&B, etc.)?

I'm not suggesting that you are right or wrong, but wish for you to expand on these opinions & observations.  I'm interested in the thoughts and observations of others as well...

Best,

Steve

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2008, 09:13:49 PM »
 8) When that management company comes in..

say goodbye to some of the long term help, independence is not rewarded in many "team" environments and their higher salaries may not be valued by the bean counters

look out for refocus into a "life style club", spa and gym and other than golf focus

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2008, 09:33:34 PM »
IMHO Clubs should be run by the local Members who know the people and region well, perhaps Members should be asked to contribute a little more – but not in the form of Money. Clubs need to be run as a business but that should not stop them putting their membership interests to the forefront. One thing I have been very keen on for years is for facilities or local activities to be made available for No golf players, however some Clubs in the UK are still believers in the Victorian Age and Gentleman Only.
I agree with what you are saying, although it is somewhat different in most UK, or at least Scottish, clubs that I am familiar with.  Most of the private clubs here in Toronto are essentially completely made up of local members so what you say about local members is not really applicable. 

Joining one of the better clubs is much like many parts of the US and entails an upfront investment of $40,000-$100,000 (the Canadian dollar is currently 1% stronger than the US dollar) and annual dues of $4,000-$10,000.  My recollection of Scottish clubs is that one only pays annual dues of something like a few hundred pounds - and there may be additional fees to your club if the course is not owned by the club.  But the big strategy is to completely there is to soak the visitors and make them pay as much for two rounds as a local will pay for his entire year.

Whereas in North America one wants to keep uninvited guests to a minimum and the membership don't mind paying the high price for that exclusivity that seems to be valued much more in North America.  But this is getting rather off the original topic!

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2008, 09:50:41 PM »
Steve nails it. The culture and purpose of private clubs are changing before our eyes. I don't understand all things driving those changes, but there is no doubt they are happening.

The thing that has changed the least is the golf. But everything around it - the pools, clubhouses, food and beverage, tennis, etc. - are all heading off in new directions.

Scaling back to becoming a pure golf club might make sense in theory, but it is very hard to do. The disruptions it causes can kill a club.

Bob     

Bob,

I'm interested in hearing your expanded thoughts on this...

How do you see the culture and purpose of private clubs changing?  And, in what new directions do you see everything around golf heading (pools, clubhouses, tennis, F&B, etc.)?

I'm not suggesting that you are right or wrong, but wish for you to expand on these opinions & observations.  I'm interested in the thoughts and observations of others as well...

Best,

Steve

Steve -

Chris Millard, a good friend of mine, has written a piece on this topic that will be published soon in Golf Digest. He and I and others (including some GCA regulars) spent hours talking about it. I suggest we wait for Chris' article and pick this topic back up then. It ought to provide a good framework for discussions.

Speaking for myself, I think private clubs in 20 or 30 years will be very different places than they are today.  And it's not a money issue. I think it's mostly generational.

The things that drew me and my father and his father to join private golf clubs - the mix of golf, family recreation, a place for couples to socialize, dance, drink, the social exclusivity, etc. - all those draws don't seem to have the same appeal to younger families. The numbers tell us that. Gosh, my own kids tell me that.

But let's read Chris' piece (I haven't seen it yet) and get back on this. It's a hard topic to organize because it has so many moving parts.

Bob     

Peter Wagner

Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2008, 09:55:21 PM »

The UK has Club Secretaries/Managers, while there are some good and high efficient Ladies and Gentlemen who run a tight ship, many fall by the way side due to lack of assistance (perhaps due to tight budgets). Letters and certainly e-mails never get acknowledged let alone answered.

Melvyn,

I had the pleasure of an hour's conversation with James Montgomery, former Secretary of Royal Troon.  James' son is Colin Montgomery.  James is in his 80's now and just about the nicest person I've ever come across.  He and I had a good time sharing club stories back and forth and he gave me some pretty good advice about working with members.  He also recommended a book, Letters to the Secretary, written by a Scottish club Secretary in about 1890 or so.  Turns out that these committee problems have been about the same since golf was invented. 

I agree with your comments on apathy.

Mike,
For what it's worth, I'm reversing my earlier statements about a single owner starting up a profitable club without real estate.  Your post caused me to make a quick and dirty spreadsheet at work using an entirely different business model and as soon as I flush it out a little I'll send it to you.  My initial take is that you could actually do really well if people bought into this different idea.  Just a half baked idea that I'll post when I cook it a little longer.

- Peter

PS. Not one emoticon used as I'm saving it for the back 9.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2008, 09:58:04 PM »
Steve nails it. The culture and purpose of private clubs are changing before our eyes. I don't understand all things driving those changes, but there is no doubt they are happening.

The thing that has changed the least is the golf. But everything around it - the pools, clubhouses, food and beverage, tennis, etc. - are all heading off in new directions.

Scaling back to becoming a pure golf club might make sense in theory, but it is very hard to do. The disruptions it causes can kill a club.

Bob     

Bob,

I'm interested in hearing your expanded thoughts on this...

How do you see the culture and purpose of private clubs changing?  And, in what new directions do you see everything around golf heading (pools, clubhouses, tennis, F&B, etc.)?

I'm not suggesting that you are right or wrong, but wish for you to expand on these opinions & observations.  I'm interested in the thoughts and observations of others as well...

Best,

Steve

In the beginning many private clubs in small town America were formed for several purposes..one being to serve alcohol and have a private dining area as well as golf....this was many $$$$$ and justified clubhouses.....now they must compete with many restaurants.  Many new housing developments that do not have golf have swim and tennis....thus the husband just needs a good daily fee course to capture the same benefits that only twenty years ago required a club.  THERE WILL ALWAYS BE EXCEPTIONS....the free enterprise system will find a way....
Peter,
I understand Reynolds and the various RE plays as you describe....and yes you are correct.....there will come a day when a developer "gives" the club to the members.  But as with a Reynolds and a few others...nope...they charge enough upfront fee to do ok and they have good operators....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2008, 10:10:35 PM »
Steve nails it. The culture and purpose of private clubs are changing before our eyes. I don't understand all things driving those changes, but there is no doubt they are happening.

The thing that has changed the least is the golf. But everything around it - the pools, clubhouses, food and beverage, tennis, etc. - are all heading off in new directions.

Scaling back to becoming a pure golf club might make sense in theory, but it is very hard to do. The disruptions it causes can kill a club.

Bob     

Bob,

I'm interested in hearing your expanded thoughts on this...

How do you see the culture and purpose of private clubs changing?  And, in what new directions do you see everything around golf heading (pools, clubhouses, tennis, F&B, etc.)?

I'm not suggesting that you are right or wrong, but wish for you to expand on these opinions & observations.  I'm interested in the thoughts and observations of others as well...

Best,

Steve

Steve -

Chris Millard, a good friend of mine, has written a piece on this topic that will be published soon in Golf Digest. He and I and others (including some GCA regulars) spent hours talking about it. I suggest we wait for Chris' article and pick this topic back up then. It ought to provide a good framework for discussions.

Speaking for myself, I think private clubs in 20 or 30 years will be very different places than they are today.  And it's not a money issue. I think it's mostly generational.

The things that drew me and my father and his father to join private golf clubs - the mix of golf, family recreation, a place for couples to socialize, dance, drink, the social exclusivity, etc. - all those draws don't seem to have the same appeal to younger families. The numbers tell us that. Gosh, my own kids tell me that.

But let's read Chris' piece (I haven't seen it yet) and get back on this. It's a hard topic to organize because it has so many moving parts.

Bob     

Fair enough - I'm interested to see Chris' piece, and to pick up the discussion following. 

Peter Wagner

Re: Will private clubs in America survive committee governance?
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2008, 11:35:34 PM »

The things that drew me and my father and his father to join private golf clubs - the mix of golf, family recreation, a place for couples to socialize, dance, drink, the social exclusivity, etc. - all those draws don't seem to have the same appeal to younger families. The numbers tell us that. Gosh, my own kids tell me that.

But let's read Chris' piece (I haven't seen it yet) and get back on this. It's a hard topic to organize because it has so many moving parts.

Bob     

Bob,
I'm not sure I buy into your 'generational' thoughts as my one data point, my home club, shows otherwise.  We have an average age of 49 for our membership and our dinning rooms are filed with 30-somethings with young kids and 40-somethings with teens.  (I'll leave the 60-somethings with newborns for a different thread.)

One of the benefits of the oft maligned residential golf course is that you are surrounded by families, 35% of which will join your club.  Because of the explosion of residential golf courses in the U.S., we probably have an equally large base of families.  I don't have any data, just guessing based on my one experience.

I look forward to Chris' article.

We have drifted from Mike's original topic.

- Peter

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