[Peter Pallotta]

Probably a dumb question, but besides being public is there anything else that all or most of the courses mentioned have in common?

Or to put it another way, is there a single most important pre-requistive for the best of public courses?

Just to toss something off the top of my head, I'm not sure "routing" is the one....

Thanks
Peter



 

[Joe Hancock]

Peter,

If not routing, then how about fun?

That would be near the top of my criteria. (and, how good the divots smell...)

Joe

[Adam Clayman]

Failure to mention Wild Horse is an over-sight.
 
Mentioning Cog Hill #4 and not mentioning Lakota Canyon is interesting.

Pinon Hills is Ken Dye's best. And yes it is better than Paa-ko Ridge.

[Bob Jenkins]

Mr. Bert,

I assume the course you intended to attribute to Robert Muir Graves was Furry Creek, not Fuzzy Creek as I recall you mentioning having played the latter.

I believe Cary intended us to nominate the best public course of each architect, not the worst. Furry Creek is the worst Robert Muir Graves I have seen but I doubt that any architect could have made that site into a good golf course.

Robert Muir Graves did design the original 18 at Port Ludlow, Wa. and as I recall it was pretty good although hilly as well.

Les Furber - Riverway in Burnaby BC or Fairview Mountain in Oliver BC

Tom McBroom - Big Sky in Pemberton BC

Stanley Thompson's is definitely Banff.

Macan? Around here, I think his courses are almost all private. Must be some in Washington state.

[Phil McDade]

Ah---Phil,

Check you the first post. The first GCA mentioned was Ross.
 

Garland:

My bad! But that's so obvious -- what's the next best one?

[Bill Gayne]

The book Golf Travel by Design is based on the same idea as this thread. It's broken into three parts: The Forefathers, Modern Masters, and the Next Generation.

A sampling from each:

Old Tom Morris: Prestwick, County Down, Muirfield, Lahinch. Dornoch, North Devon.

Fazio: Shadow Creek, Pinehurst #8, Primm Valley, Wild Dunes, World Woods, Pine Hill

Doak: Pacific Dunes, Heathland, High Pointe, Black Forest, Beechtree

Book was published in 2003.

Architects included:
Ross, Colt, MacKenzie, Thompson, RTJ Sr, Dye, Nicklaus, Ted Robinson Sr and Jr., Hills, RTJ jr, Norman, Rees Jones, Weiskopf, McBroom, Strantz.

[Phil McDade]

Harrison Hills  and   Kankakee Elks     Langford  Moreau

Mark:

HHills is half-Langford/Moreau, half-Liddy.

Two semi-regular DG posters would probably argue with your choice of Kankakee Elks over Lawsonia. They'd probably put L/M's Spring Valley in southern WI ahead of it, as well.

[Phil_the_Author]

Kyle,

As usual, when it comes to Bethpage you are wrong! 

The original Blue course was superior to the Red in many ways, and there are about 12 holes of it still in existence between the new Blue and Yellow. You described the Blue as having "the least interesting of the Tillinghast" holes that were saved. you must have skipped the 2nd hole which is among the best par-fours on all of the courses.

Oh yes, the Green has far more of Tilly than just 1 & 18 as well with major changes to 15-17 when the Black was created.

The Red is a superior course, but is clearly #2...

There are two other wonderful Tilly public courses that always seem to get lost in the shuffle. Brackenridge Park, site of numerous texas Opens and PGA tour events is a city-owned municipal course and Cedar Crest in Dallas, a private club that was purchased by the city many years ago and is now it's finest municipal course. It was the site of the 1927 PGA Championship.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

As usual, when it comes to Bethpage you are wrong! 

The original Blue course was superior to the Red in many ways, and there are about 12 holes of it still in existence between the new Blue and Yellow. You described the Blue as having "the least interesting of the Tillinghast" holes that were saved. you must have skipped the 2nd hole which is among the best par-fours on all of the courses.

Oh yes, the Green has far more of Tilly than just 1 & 18 as well with major changes to 15-17 when the Black was created.

The Red is a superior course, but is clearly #2...

There are two other wonderful Tilly public courses that always seem to get lost in the shuffle. Brackenridge Park, site of numerous texas Opens and PGA tour events is a city-owned municipal course and Cedar Crest in Dallas, a private club that was purchased by the city many years ago and is now it's finest municipal course. It was the site of the 1927 PGA Championship.

Phil,

I knew there was more Tillinghast on the Green, just unsure as to what. As for the second hole of the Blue, it is a great hole, but I thought it was one of the Tull holes, which lead to my assessment. I also find the finishers on both nines of the Blue to be lacking, as well as all the par 3s, which are essentially the same high point to high point par 3 in different directions. The 2nd and 8th holes, as well as the 12th and 13th all stand out in my mind as excellent, though.

I am perhaps overly fond of the 10-14 stretch on the Yellow Course.

[Buck Wolter]

I'm curious, what is Perry Maxwell's best?  Does he even have one?

I've played two Perry Maxwell publics, Veenker Memorial at Iowa State Univ in Ames and Kentucky Dam Village State Park outside Paducah, I'd pick Venkeer of the two. If I ever make it big I will try to get ISU to restore Venkeer.

For James Foulis I'd suggest Normandie in St. Louis since Forest Park was turned into an Irwin Course.

Buck

[Kyle Harris]

I believe that Melrose Country Club just outside of Philadelphia is now Semi-Private with daily tee times available to the public.

If Chris Clouser sees this, I believe he regards the 2nd hole there as one of Maxwell's best.

[Tim Bert]

Mr. Bert,

I assume the course you intended to attribute to Robert Muir Graves was Furry Creek, not Fuzzy Creek as I recall you mentioning having played the latter.

I believe Cary intended us to nominate the best public course of each architect, not the worst. Furry Creek is the worst Robert Muir Graves I have seen but I doubt that any architect could have made that site into a good golf course.

I did mean Furry Creek.  I can't believe I typed Fuzzy.  It must be my memory that is fuzzy.  I only listed it because I know so many people get fired up about it.  I was just kidding around, though my other nominations on the list were serious.

[Jim Johnson]

Les Furber - Riverway in Burnaby BC or Fairview Mountain in Oliver BC

Tom McBroom - Big Sky in Pemberton BC

Stanley Thompson's is definitely Banff.

Macan? Around here, I think his courses are almost all private. Must be some in Washington state.

Bob, wasn't Big Sky designed by Bob Cupp?

[Cliff Hamm]

Mark:  I don't know what the guest policy is at Cape Arundel, but it certainly isn't a "public" course.  Maybe you can play there in the off season.

To save Matt W. the trouble, I'll nominate Black Mesa for Baxter Spann.  I'll let Jeff Brauer nominate his own.

I've played Mark Twain and it's very cool, but it's no Pinehurst No. 2.  And for C.B. Macdonald, it should be The Course at Yale or Mid Ocean, both of which allow outside play on occasion.

I'm curious, what is Perry Maxwell's best?  Does he even have one?

Tom...Cape Arundel actually has a very liberal public play policy.   It used to be restricted to a few hours every day but currently  the public may call 3 days in advance with high season greens fees $65.

As for Yale they used to allow off season play.  When I called recently the policy is more liberal.  If a Yale alumni calls you may play.  Or have a club pro, any club pro call, and they will let you play.  Point being does not have to be a private club.

[Phil McDade]

I've played two Perry Maxwell publics, Veenker Memorial at Iowa State Univ in Ames and Kentucky Dam Village State Park outside Paducah, I'd pick Venkeer of the two. If I ever make it big I will try to get ISU to restore Venkeer.

For James Foulis I'd suggest Normandie in St. Louis since Forest Park was turned into an Irwin Course.

Buck

Buck:

Have you played Foulis' Bonnie Brook in Waukegan? I played it last year and found it to be pretty good, although some bunker restoration would help.

[Buck Wolter]

Phil-

I misspoke, Normandie is actually a Robert Foulis design as is Glen Echo in St. Louis and several others.

Have you ever read Ran's interview of  Jim Healey? Quite a bunch of brothers
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewhealey.html

Buck

[mark chalfant]

Phil 

Regarding Kankakee and Harrison hills, i am trying to inform  golfers of courses  beyond the " usual suspects." Harrison Hills about 7-8 Langford holes, with 8-9 by Liddy. One or two holes is fusion par five.

Ive played quite a few designs by  Langford and Moreau, and although  i love Lawsonia, its my view that  2,16, and 18 at  Harrison  are some of their
most inspired holes.





ps  I  hope  to see Spring Valley in 2009

[mark chalfant]

Knoll , NJ    Charles  Banks... nice restoration by  George Bahto

CC of Reading,  PA.    Alex  Findlay

How about  Willie Park JR.  , in both  Britain  and  USA    !!!






Does  francis Byrne by C. Banks deserve  mention ?

[Garland Bayley]

I haven't played it, but Brauer gets kudos for his quarry course in MN. Any of you MN folks know the name?

Richardson, The Hideout, Monticello, UT

[Mike_Cirba]

Eisenhower Red by Dev Emmett, sans the 1st and 18th holes by RTJ Sr.

Cobb's Creek, primarily by Hugh Wilson and Ab Smith, with assists from George Crump, Frank Meehan, George Klauder, and Walter Travis.

Water Gap and more recently, Berkleigh by Robert White.

[John_Conley]

I haven't played it, but Brauer gets kudos for his quarry course in MN. Any of you MN folks know the name?

Richardson, The Hideout, Monticello, UT

Jeff's course is called the Quarry.  It is at Giant's Ridge, a ski resort in Biwabik.  (I'm told.  Never been there.)

[Jim Nugent]

For Doak we could add Barnbougle and/or CK.

What would you guys choose from Nicklaus?  I think we should not include Harbour Town, as it sounds like Dye did most of the design there. 
 

[Cliff Hamm]

Brian Silva - Most would say Red Tail.  I would put Waverly Oaks in the running.

Ross - what is his best predominately public course? Not resort unless greens fees are 'reasonable'.

Cornish ?

[Dan Herrmann]

Central PA publics that I like:

Hershey Links (formerly Wren Dale) in Hershey, PA.  A fun Hurdzan-Fry linksy course.
Links at Gettysburg (Lindsay Ervin and Steve Klein, architects)

[Kalen Braley]

Failure to mention Wild Horse is an over-sight.
 
Mentioning Cog Hill #4 and not mentioning Lakota Canyon is interesting.

Pinon Hills is Ken Dye's best. And yes it is better than Paa-ko Ridge.

Hey Adam,

I nominated Lakota Canyon as Engh's public course to be seen, And your likely to get some disagreement with Pinion Hills vs. Paa-ko. 

I'd also like to toss in:

Thanksgiving Point for Johnny Miller
Circling Raven for Gene Bates

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