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cary lichtenstein

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Let's help newbies...best public courses
« on: May 25, 2008, 10:37:51 AM »
For our newbies, and some of our less travelered oldbies, I thought we could give them a list of public courses which best represents the work of each architect, whether living or dead.

Examples of this would probably be:

Donald Ross-Pinehurst #2
Dick Wilson-Cog Hill #4
Pete Dye- Whistling Straits
Tom Doak-Pacific Dunes

Feel free to add a 2nd course to each architect if you feel it represents another significant difference in style or topography.
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

George Pazin

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2008, 10:46:51 AM »
I like your idea, cary, wish I had the breadth of experience to help.

It might also be nice to identify representative works in various geographic regions, as well as more budget-oriented options.
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Phil McDade

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2008, 10:51:16 AM »
Lawsonia Links, Green Lake, WI -- Langford and Moreau.
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Kyle Harris

Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2008, 11:04:00 AM »
Tom Fazio - World Woods Rolling Oaks (for a representative work) and Pine Barrens for a one off.
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2008, 11:06:25 AM »
Tillie - Bethpage
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kyle Harris

Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2008, 11:10:24 AM »
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on May 25, 2008, 11:06:25 AM
Tillie - Bethpage

Bethpage Red, that is.
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John Kirk

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2008, 11:15:57 AM »
An easy choice is Pasatiempo in Santa Cruz, California, a great example of Alister Mackenzie's style.
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2008, 11:18:12 AM »
Quote from: Kyle Harris on May 25, 2008, 11:10:24 AM
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on May 25, 2008, 11:06:25 AM
Tillie - Bethpage

Bethpage Red, that is.

Kyle,

Rumor has it that Bethpage Black is not a bad track either.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kyle Harris

Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2008, 11:20:51 AM »
Quote from: Garland Bayley on May 25, 2008, 11:18:12 AM
Quote from: Kyle Harris on May 25, 2008, 11:10:24 AM
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on May 25, 2008, 11:06:25 AM
Tillie - Bethpage

Bethpage Red, that is.

Kyle,

Rumor has it that Bethpage Black is not a bad track either.


I've heard those rumors. I've mentioned this before, I think the Red is better. Having played all the courses at the complex I rank them as follows:

1a. Red
1b. Black
2a. Green
2b. Yellow
3. Putting Green in front of clubhouse
4. Putting Green behind clubhouse
5. Driving Range
6. Bagel place in Farmingdale with 50 varieties of schmear
7. Blue
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2008, 11:21:59 AM »
H. Chandler Egan - Eastmoreland, Portland, OR
Also, he did a significant portion of an obscure course called Pebble Beach

Kaye, The Links of ND, Ray, ND (put that one in your google maps) ;)

Harbottle, Gold Mountain - Olympic, Bremerton, WA

Moran, Lederbach, PA

Hurdzan, Devil's Pulpit, Ontario I have not played it, but I can wholeheartedly recommend Bully Pulpit, Medora, ND
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 02:14:15 PM by Garland Bayley »
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2008, 11:24:46 AM »
Hey Newbies,

Kyle says don't play Bethpage Blue. Don't even think about it. And most of all friends don't let friends play Blue!
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kyle Harris

Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2008, 11:39:20 AM »
Quote from: Garland Bayley on May 25, 2008, 11:24:46 AM
Hey Newbies,

Kyle says don't play Bethpage Blue. Don't even think about it. And most of all friends don't let friends play Blue!


LOL! Not quite. The Blue is a fine golf course, it just has the better of the Alfred Tull holes at Bethpage and probably the least interesting of the Tillinghast. The Yellow has the worst of the Tull holes and the better of the Tillinghast from the Old Blue Course.

Today's Blue and Yellow courses are composed of bits and pieces of the old Blue Course. 18 holes were added to the facility in the 1950s by Alfred Tull.

The Green Course is mainly what is left of the old Lenox Hill Country Club by Dev Emmet. With a few holes modified or designed by Tillinghast, such as the 1st and 18th. The Red and Black are all Tillinghast.
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Robert_Ball

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2008, 12:19:32 PM »
Mike Strantz - Caledonia
CB Macdonald/Seth Raynor - Greenbrier (Old White)
William P. Bell - San Clemente Municipal front nine.  For 18, Balboa Park or Willowick
William F. Bell - Torrey Pines (North)
Todd Eckenrode - Barona
Ted Robinson - Tijeras Creek
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Tim Bert

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2008, 12:54:09 PM »
Coore & Crenshaw - Bandon Trails
Stanley Thompson - Banff Springs
Robert Muir Graves - Fuzzy Creek  ;)


To be clear, are we trying to identify the best of their public work, or the public course that best represents the architects style (even if it isn't their best work.)

I'd nominate Newport National for Art Hills if we are looking for the "best of" but I'm not sure its representative of his body of work.
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John Kirk

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2008, 01:07:30 PM »
Robert Cupp and John Fought in Oregon:

Pumpkin Ridge - Ghost Creek
Crosswater
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David Stamm

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2008, 01:39:17 PM »
Kirk already mentioned Pasa for MacKenzie.

Rustic Canyon for Gil Hanse

Meadowlark or Montebello for Max Behr

Ojai or Griffith Park (what's left at these places) for George Thomas

I agree with Ball, San Clemente (front 9), Willowick and Rec Park for Billy Bell

Barona for Todd Eckenrode

PGA West for Pete Dye

Spyglass Hill for Robert Trent Jones

Desert Dunes for Robert Trent Jones, jr.

Oak Valley for Lee Schmidt and Brian Curley

Sandpiper for William F Bell (jr)

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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Garland Bayley

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2008, 01:58:39 PM »
Quote from: David Stamm on May 25, 2008, 01:39:17 PM

Desert Dunes for Robert Trent Jones, jr.


Chambers Bay, University Place, WA for Robert Trent Jones, jr.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2008, 01:59:25 PM »
I would add:

Lakota Canyon - Jim Engh
Pebble Beach - Jack Neville

And argue

Tobacco Road - Mike Stranz
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Phil McDade

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2008, 02:05:24 PM »
Some 17 responses, and no Ross yet. What's the best public Ross? I've heard good things about Mark Twain in Elmira, NY. But I've never played a Ross.

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Garland Bayley

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2008, 02:10:06 PM »
Ah---Phil,

Check you the first post. The first GCA mentioned was Ross.
 :o
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Stamm

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2008, 02:14:18 PM »
Quote from: Garland Bayley on May 25, 2008, 01:58:39 PM
Quote from: David Stamm on May 25, 2008, 01:39:17 PM

Desert Dunes for Robert Trent Jones, jr.


Chambers Bay, University Place, WA for Robert Trent Jones, jr.



I ahven't played Chmabers, Garland, so I can't say. Although by the pics I'm sure it's better. But did jr really do it though? ;)
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Garland Bayley

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2008, 02:17:25 PM »
Jr. certainly had very significant input on it. However, it is known there was a lot of arguing over it behind closed doors when Jr. was in town.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

mark chalfant

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2008, 02:20:20 PM »
Harrison Hills  and   Kankakee Elks     Langford  Moreau
Cape Arundel     Walter Travis
Rutland               (Stiles)
Timber  Point   ( a few holes)    Alison
Atlantic  City     Flynn /Doak
Paxon  Hills     Meehan

In  Michigan:

Angels Crossings   Matthews
Rogell    Ross
DeVries    Greywalls
Orchards   RTJII
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Tim Gavrich

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2008, 02:35:28 PM »
Donald Ross--Triggs Memorial (RI)
Geoffrey Cornish--Simsbury Farms (CT), Sugarloaf (PA), Portland (CT)
George Fazio--Ridgefield (CT), Oak Ridge (MA)
Al Zikorus--Timberlin (CT)
George Cobb--Paradise Point Gold (NC)
Coore & Crenshaw--Cuscowilla, Kapalua Plantation
Dan Maples--Willbrook Plantation (SC)
Tom Jackson--River Club (SC--Myrtle Beach area)
Rees Jones--Duke Golf Club, Bryan Park
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Let's help newbies...best public courses
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2008, 02:38:03 PM »
Mark:  I don't know what the guest policy is at Cape Arundel, but it certainly isn't a "public" course.  Maybe you can play there in the off season.

To save Matt W. the trouble, I'll nominate Black Mesa for Baxter Spann.  I'll let Jeff Brauer nominate his own.

I've played Mark Twain and it's very cool, but it's no Pinehurst No. 2.  And for C.B. Macdonald, it should be The Course at Yale or Mid Ocean, both of which allow outside play on occasion.

I'm curious, what is Perry Maxwell's best?  Does he even have one?
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