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mark chalfant

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Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillinghast)
« on: May 24, 2008, 11:52:06 AM »
A friend in Chicago asked me which of these courses has a better routing and is more fun to play. Has anyone had chance to play these Minnesota courses  ?

thanks



p.s.  he is an accurate  +2 golfer who loves undulating  greens
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 10:32:14 PM by mark chalfant »

Brad Klein

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2008, 11:56:17 AM »
Both are fascinating. Northland for its holes atop that look out upon Lake Superior --or offer glimpses thereof through the trees; Rochester for the ground features on much lower lying earth. Haven't been to Rochester in 22 years but saw Northland with Jeff Brauer (whilst dining on slider -- he can explain) two years ago and was impressed.

Jeff Shelman

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2008, 05:41:36 PM »
If I could only play one, I would pick Northland.

It is an interesting routing with many really good holes. The views of Lake Superior are stunning, the greens are confounding because of the lake and the club has really embraced firm and fast.

I like Rochester (despite the fact that there are way too many trees), but Northland is fantastic.

Phil McDade

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2008, 06:14:13 PM »
I think, if I'm not wrong, that GCA poster Rick Shefchik may have grown up playing Northland. He likes it a lot, and says much of the Ross is intact.

For some reason, Rochester CC flies well below the radar of Tillinghast courses. I've heard similar comments from friends -- heavily treed, perhaps too much, but still a very good course.

Dan Kelly

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2008, 11:06:02 PM »
I think, if I'm not wrong, that GCA poster Rick Shefchik may have grown up playing Northland. He likes it a lot, and says much of the Ross is intact.

You are not wrong. And you spelled his name right, too!

I've played it only once (kind of a whirlwind tour, in Rick's company), so am not qualified to speak to its virtues. (I loved it. Fantastic fun up and down the hills. And Rick told me that I was the first first-timer he'd ever seen who read the greens well. Dumb luck!)

Rick will check in sooner or later.

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John_Conley

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2008, 11:34:16 PM »
Mark, I have played Northland once and Rochester two or three times.  I consider Northland a better golf course, but Rochester is very good too.

I'm pretty sure Rochester has no water hazards and it might not have many bunkers either.

I he goes to play either, there are some worthwhile courses to see in the area.  Cloquet added a second nine, but tell him to play at least the original if he goes up north.

If he drives from Chicago to Rochester he needs to see Winona.  It may be called the Bridges now.  And if he leaves Chicago to go to the Twin Cities he'll have a great time at Owatonna.

Phil McDade

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2008, 08:40:20 AM »
John:

It is called the Bridges -- what do you know of it? I've heard interesting things about it.

Do you know who designed Owatonna? I've never played, just driven past. Great, rolling terrain, from all appearances.

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2008, 10:50:27 AM »
I'm headed up to Duluth in a couple of weeks to play in Northland's member-guest, and I look forward to these annual homecomings the way any of us would savor a return trip to the course where we first learned how to hold a club, line up a putt, eyeball a distance and go for that par 5 in two. Obviously, home-course bias and nostalgia are factors in my assessment, but after almost 50 years of golf, Northland still holds up as one of the best and most unique courses I've ever played.

Sorry that I can't compare and contrast with Rochester, but despite years of wanting to play there, I haven't made the trip yet. Maybe this fall...

Northland's main glories are its topography -- built above and below bluffs that offer spectacular views of Lake Superior -- and its greens, which have not changed substantially since I first saw them in the late '50s. The tilt of the land goes hand in hand with Ross's slightly raised, open-fronted greens to create problems and opportunites that you don't find on many courses. When the course is playing firm and fast -- as it should, and has been the last couple of years -- you can, and probably should, bounce and/or bank approach shots into the greens on #1, #7, #9, #11, #12, #13, #14 and #15.

The front nine essentially plays uphill and away from the lake. The thread about steep uphill holes that work reminded me of several of Northland's best holes: the short, tricky #2 with a severely sloped back-to-front skyline green, the longer #3, with a two-tiered green that can't be seen from the fairway, and the great #10, an uphill dogleg right that requires the two best shots you can hit to reach the elevated green in regulation.

Downhill approach shots are the primary feature of the back nine as you work your way back from above the bluffs toward the clubhouse. Consecutive par 4s 14, 15 and 16 test your club selection skills and your concentration as you try to ignore the views of the lake and figure out the firmness of the greens, the winds and the elevation changes.

I think Northland's 18th hole is perhaps the toughest and best finishing hole in Minnesota. The drive is into a prevailing wind, and the (usually mid-to-long iron) approach shot must carry a deep gully created by a creek. If your approach comes up a foot or two short of the severely pitched green, or comes in with too much spin, you'll roll back down the fairway to the flats by the creek, where you can't see the top of the flagstick. If you you do make the green, you could easily be looking at a putt with 20 feet of break.

Northland is loads of fun and requires great imagination. I can't think of a better way to compliment a golf course.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2008, 12:01:04 PM »
Craig Schriener did a restoration at Northland within the last ten years.  His then associated Todd Clark did most of the on site work.  Geoff Cornish had done some work there perhaps 1980 or so.  I don't think either touched the greens, but Cornish added some chocolate drop mounds and Clark redid the bunkers. 

Most if not all were rebuilt in the same locations, but some don't look very Rossish to me.  Brad would know better.  Also, check out the hollow ground forms on the right of the sixth fw.  They almost had to have been bunkers at one time, IMHO, but were not restored to the original design.

Before Ross got to Northland, there was a course, which actually crossed the road towards the lake. It was really one of his total redos of an existing not well done course to start with.  I think the land up the hills was was replacement for the land lost to real estate development near the lake and holes 1, 2, 17 and 18 were routed from the original course.

The club has a very early and simple green and tee irrigation plan that was done, showing a single quick coupling head at greens and tees only. I think it was dated at the same time as the Ross original plans or a few years later, showing the need for irrigation even in the far north and the very old days. 

Hurdzan has a reproduction of the 9th in his first version of his Golf Design Book.  As far as I can tell, that hole is in pretty original form.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2008, 12:08:34 PM »
Jeff, I would assume that, like most American courses, Northland was altered over the years by the membership planting trees where they really weren't needed. That would account for the missing bunkers between the sixth and 13th fairways -- replaced by a spaced row of mid-sized pine trees. I'd much rather see the bunkers restored.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2008, 12:24:07 PM »
Maybe it is just me, but I find it very cool that the Northland super has a blog that basically explains to members what he and his staff are doing and why they're doing it.

http://northlandgrounds.blogspot.com/


Rick Shefchik

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2008, 12:39:44 PM »
Thanks, Jeff. I didn't know Chris was doing that -- great blog. Here's a fantastic photo of the 10th hole, a truly great par 4, from Chris's blog:

"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Larry_Keltto

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2008, 03:39:42 PM »
Do you know who designed Owatonna? I've never played, just driven past. Great, rolling terrain, from all appearances.

I live in Owatonna and am a member at OCC. It's a sporty course with some excellent rolling terrain. The club was founded in 1919 and originally had nine holes. The second nine was added and some of the routing changed in the early 1970s; Joel Goldstrand did the work.

About five years ago, portions of five of the low-lying holes (11, 12, 13, 16, 17) near the Straight River were rebuilt, due to flooding issues. Fairways and greens were raised and holding ponds built to handle the floodwater. That work was a great success. Those holes typically used to be out of play for several weeks a year because of the flooding. Since the work, I believe those holes have been closed for only one day.

Due to the history, the course is a mix of push-up, California and USGA greens.

In the next two years, at least two holes will be reworked because the DOT is taking land to reconfigure the I35-Highway 14 interchange. The second hole (the par 5 seen from the Interstate) will be lost. Fortunately, some of the best terrain on the property lies immediately to the east of the second hole and isn't part of the current routing. That land will be used for the new second hole, and the potential for that hole is outstanding. The fairway for #3 also will be rerouted.

If anyone is ever in the area, I'd be happy to have you as a guest at OCC.

I used to have an out-of-town membership at Rochester. It's an excellent course, but the planting of the thousands of evergreens in the 1950s was a shame. Two new holes were built in the early 1990s because (I was told) some of the members wanted water holes! The holes were a disaster. I've heard they've been abandoned and the original routing restored.

Phil McDade

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2008, 05:45:01 PM »
Larry:

Thanks for the background -- that's the view I've gotten of the course, from that interchange, as well as a few other glances. I have distant relatives in town, but just haven't gotten around to staying in Owatonna for an extended period.

There are a number of very under-the-radar courses in Minnesota (outside the Twin Cities area) that I've heard are quite good. I've played LeSeur, and thought it was really good.

Jeff Shelman

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2008, 10:43:36 PM »
The new holes at Rochester are no longer in play. There isn't a water hazard on the course.

It's a fine course and fun. But it isn't as good as Northland.

John_Conley

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2008, 11:34:03 PM »
John:

It is called the Bridges -- what do you know of it? I've heard interesting things about it.

Do you know who designed Owatonna? I've never played, just driven past. Great, rolling terrain, from all appearances.

Phil, Winona is very good.  Worth playing if you are looking for a game within 30-40 miles.

Larry informed us of the particulars at Owatonna.  It is one of the most enjoyable rounds of golf anywhere.  #1 is a short par 4 starting hole to an elevated green, #2 is a two-shots-and-a-pitch par 5 with water fronting the green.  They'll probably get by fine without that hole.  The back side has several excellent holes like #11 and #12.  If I recall correctly, #9 and #18 are side-by-side finishing par 3s.

I'm not the fan of Le Seuer that others are.  My friends really like the place but I didn't think it was anything special.  For good small town courses, the best I've seen are Cloquet, Owatonna, and Winona.  Haven't played Pokegama, but I'm told it is pretty solid.

Tony Petersen

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2008, 04:06:51 AM »
For good small town courses, the best I've seen are Cloquet, Owatonna, and Winona.  Haven't played Pokegama, but I'm told it is pretty solid.


I'm going to have to include Alexandria in the mix for best small-town courses  ;)

Rochester is a great time, but Northland is hands down the better course. Today. No idea what was or may have been, though Rochester has waaaaaay toooooo many trees. Northland, on the other hand, has some of the funnest greens to be found. Reminds me of P. Maxwells work at Hiwan GC outside of Denver. Those that have played both will know where I'm coming from because there is NO WAY that this putt is going to break to the right...

Anyone ever played Red Wing GC or The Jewel in Lake City... Red Wing looks ridiculously tight?
Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2008, 08:26:09 AM »
"Haven't played Pokegama, but I'm told it is pretty solid."

I have played (and actually consulted a little there) and its nice little course, on par with the original "Ross" (claimed) nine at Cloquet.  That said, if you get that far north, I can think of a few modern courses around that area that might provide a little more interest!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2008, 10:55:17 AM »
I've been hearing the claim for years that the original nine at Cloquet was designed by Ross, and I've also heard for years that the claim is false. Anyone know for sure?
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Dan Kelly

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2008, 11:09:38 AM »
I can think of a few modern courses around that area that might provide a little more interest!

The Brauer Trail!

Jeff --

How many more courses would that area need, do you think, before it would become a nationally known Golf Destination, on the order of ... well, I don't know, exactly. Bandon?

You know what I mean: a place where serious golfers go for the express purpose of playing golf -- as opposed to a place where fishermen take their clubs along, too.

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jeff Shelman

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2008, 12:14:05 PM »
Though I'm probably not the Jeff you were looking for Mr. Kelly, wouldn't you say that it is kind of already going in that direction at least among Twin Cities/Midwest golfers.

Many guys I know determine their destination this way:

- If it is a guys golf weekend, they go to Giants Ridge/Wilderness.
- If it is wife/family trip where they might be able to play once or twice, they go to Brainerd.

Go Royals

Dan Kelly

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2008, 02:13:12 PM »
Though I'm probably not the Jeff you were looking for Mr. Kelly, wouldn't you say that it is kind of already going in that direction at least among Twin Cities/Midwest golfers.

Many guys I know determine their destination this way:

- If it is a guys golf weekend, they go to Giants Ridge/Wilderness.
- If it is wife/family trip where they might be able to play once or twice, they go to Brainerd.

Go Royals

Jeff --

I'm sure you're right about that.

I wonder how many more courses it would take to get the guys from Chicago, and St. Louis, and ... dare I say it? ... the Philadelphia/New Jersey/Long Island axis to see northeastern Minnesota as a site worthy of a golf trip.

Go, Royals -- indeed!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2008, 02:44:52 PM »
Dan,

Jeff is right. My courses up there often have only 4 tee times for the day - but each is a busload of guys from a club or golf association.  They don't know exactly why that is, but are happy to have the golf only crowd, but more women and couples are also playing.

I am not sure what it would take to get the iron range better known as a golf destination elsewhere.  They do get a surprising amount of play from people listing eastern places like NY their home, but I think most of those have summer homes in MN.  They also get a lot from Canada. 

They tried advertising in Texas and elsewhere but I am not sure of the results.  Chicago and the midwest cities would be logical.  However, I suspect the urgency to do so isn't as great as it might be if you golf crazy Minnesotans (and some stragglers) weren't filling up the tee sheets.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Phil McDade

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2008, 09:48:35 PM »
Jeff:

What's the (legitimate) golfing season on the Range? I know one of the factors that surely weighs in favor of Bandon is that it is essentially a year-round resort, albiet with harsh, Huckaby-ish conditions for some of the time. But your courses have to be essentially unplayable for -- six months? At least four months? I'm guessing the season up there is shorter than, say, Kohler's Sheboygan quartet by a month on each end.

On the other hand, I did read somewhere that Minnesota may have the highest per-capita ratio of golfers of any state in the country.


Dan Kelly

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Re: Northland (Ross) and Rochester(Tillingahst)
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2008, 09:57:02 PM »
What's the (legitimate) golfing season on the Range?

This year, The Quarry at Giants Ridge opened May 7. The Legend at Giants Ridge opened May 12. If they're open much beyond mid-October, most years, I'd be surprised. So we're looking at about 5- to 6-month season on the Iron Range.

On the other hand, I did read somewhere that Minnesota may have the highest per-capita ratio of golfers of any state in the country.


That's because we never get sick of it. About the time we're ready for a break, we get one -- for months!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016