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Patrick_Mucci

Architecture that creates fear and affects play
« on: May 23, 2008, 08:08:07 PM »
Eliminating OB and water, do greens that have a severe falloff at the back of the green intimidate golfers, causing most to come up dramatically short on approaches, recoveries and even putts ?

The fronts of elevated greens don't seem to intimidate golfers, unless they happen to look like # 2 at Pine Valley.

But, greens with severe, rear fall offs seem to scare almost every level of golfer.

Is it the unknown nature of what lies behind the green, versus the clear visual of what lies in front of the green ?

Do sloped, low front to high back, greens which are much harder to recover to from behind the green, add to the fear factor and affect play ?

PThomas

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Re: Architecture that creates fear and affects play
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2008, 08:13:53 PM »
maybe its me Pat, but some greens that fall back to front a lot scare me plenty...for ex, i think there are two of them at Rolling Green
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Phil_the_Author

Re: Architecture that creates fear and affects play
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2008, 08:57:03 PM »
Pat,

I don't think so, or at least that they don't as much as they should.

I believe this is another area where modern technology will eventually effect great old architecture and challenge architects in designing modern courses. For with ball flights higher and landings becoming such that even average players have literal natural roll to their ball after landing due to shot angle and ball spin, that palyers today think in terms of hitting a green center rather than how to play a shot into a well-protected green.

Tillinghast believed that the first and most important aspect in golf course design was the entrances into greens. This because he came from an era where the balls flew lower and the ground game was far more important than today.

It will only be when the ground game gets whatever recovery that may be possible, and this primarily on courses where "firm and fast" is the mantra, that running shots over a green sloping away becomes the challenge and fear that it should be...

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Architecture that creates fear and affects play
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2008, 09:50:09 PM »
When Firm and Fast all slopes are tough as nails - putts too.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Architecture that creates fear and affects play
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2008, 10:09:00 PM »
Phil Young,

I've noticed a good number of AWT holes with steep falloffs at the back of the green have a unique berm located a couple of yards below the putting surface to catch or slow down balls hit long.

I've also noticed the feature on a few Ross courses as well.

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re: Architecture that creates fear and affects play
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2008, 10:36:02 PM »
Pat,

I don't think so, or at least that they don't as much as they should.

I believe this is another area where modern technology will eventually effect great old architecture and challenge architects in designing modern courses. For with ball flights higher and landings becoming such that even average players have literal natural roll to their ball after landing due to shot angle and ball spin, that palyers today think in terms of hitting a green center rather than how to play a shot into a well-protected green.

Tillinghast believed that the first and most important aspect in golf course design was the entrances into greens. This because he came from an era where the balls flew lower and the ground game was far more important than today.

It will only be when the ground game gets whatever recovery that may be possible, and this primarily on courses where "firm and fast" is the mantra, that running shots over a green sloping away becomes the challenge and fear that it should be...

Phil,

   The Red's 4th hole (par 3, 171 yds) has steep falloffs on two sides--left and rear.  The front bunker does wrap around to the side, which, as Pat says, serves as the "safety net".  This is an intimidating hole. 
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

John Sheehan

Re: Architecture that creates fear and affects play
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2008, 10:52:21 PM »
Patrick,
This is an interesting question.  If I understand it correctly, I think steep fall-offs, whether back, front or sides are intimidating to most golfers, provided the course plays firm and fast.  It is probably more so for the aggressive golfer who tends to go flag hunting, the one who cannot bring himself/herself to play a prudent shot.  I can think of a number of holes with steep fall-off's that put the fear of god in most golfers.  Locally there are a few, and of course those with front fall-offs like #9 ANGC and (I think) #10 at Shinnecock which I have only seen on the tube, look like they create a lot of angst.

Locally, Roddy Ranch's 16th hole, a long par 4 that plays into the prevailing winds, has both a false front and a steep fall-off.  Once you've watched your playing partner's approach spin back, then roll another 40 yards or more from the front of the green, I can guarantee you think twice about the club you just pulled from your bag.

The prospect of trying to get up and down from a green like the one you have described, is part of the fear of missing it.  Generally, when I have missed one like that because I was either too aggressive (back fall-off) or too timid (front), adds to the dilemma.  Trying to refocus for that recovery shot takes a lot of will power.  You know that the recovery shot is going to be very demanding.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Architecture that creates fear and affects play
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2008, 11:24:27 PM »
Maybe it's late and I'm overtired since I got up at 5:20 this morning, but, what does firm & fast have to do with the steep incline behind a green ?

I'm aware that balls can run through a green, but, it's the attempt to hit to the hole that's thwarted, visually and psychologically, by the knowledge of a steep incline to the rear of the green when the hole is cut in the back of that green.

It's an unusual course that's firm and fast in the spring or in the hot summer months like August.

I think this is predominantly an aerial issue.

# 1 at Pine Valley is a perfect example.

Sean_A

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Re: Architecture that creates fear and affects play
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2008, 05:04:57 AM »
Patrick

Growing up on a Ross course gave me a healthy fear of going long because I knew the comeback was essentially not going to end in an up and down.  I don't think steep bank/short grass trouble long is used enough these days or perhaps never at all.  Having said that, I am told that most golfers come up short with their approaches anyway so it may be wasted money keeping short grass behind the green. 

I do believe f&f can effect one's play if it is known that long is not the place to be.  If conditions are soft it is easy to long out of play by just accepting the notion of keeping the ball between you and the hole while not necessarily getting too close to the hole.  I really like big greens with sharp rear drop offs in f&f conditions because its terribly easy to find yourself faced with a very long two putt if the approach is too conservative.  The f&f conditions are a temptation to hit rollers in and risk going long.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Phil_the_Author

Re: Architecture that creates fear and affects play
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2008, 06:31:53 AM »
Pat & Doug,

I believe that my comment about Tilly's design philosophy is being misconstrued by you both.

Pat, "I've noticed a good number of AWT holes with steep falloffs at the back of the green have a unique berm located a couple of yards below the putting surface to catch or slow down balls hit long..."

Doug, "The Red's 4th hole (par 3, 171 yds) has steep falloffs on two sides--left and rear.  The front bunker does wrap around to the side, which, as Pat says, serves as the "safety net".  This is an intimidating hole..." 

The original question was, "Do greens that have a severe falloff at the back of the green intimidate golfers..."

My answer was, "I don't think so, or at least that they don't as much as they should..."
Most players today, even great ones, have learned the game in this time of high ball flight and dramatic spinning and stopping ability created by equipment technological advances. A good example

Consider the 11th hole at Augusta. With all of the lengthening of the hole one would think that any thought of ever playing a second shot into the middle of the green, let alone directly at the pin on the left-hand side, would be an even worse option. But that is not what is now done. More and More players are playing to the hole locations left despite years of Ken Venturi saying how Ben Hogan only hit "his second shot on the green by mistake."

Players today take front and rear features of the green into consideration less and less because their ball flights and spin allow this.

That is why I said, "I believe this is another area where modern technology will eventually effect great old architecture and challenge architects in designing modern courses..."

It was because of that comment that I brought up Tilly's design philosophy of the green entrance being the most important area of concern on any hole and that it was those features he concerned himself with FIRST.

In his day the ground game was both a viable and important playing option and therefor something that needed planning for in the design process.

That doesn't mean that I was stating that he didn't design greens with severe back and side drop-offs; to the contrary! Look at Winged Foot West as an example. So many of those greens have drop-offs of a surprising nature. Anything that is long or off-line is doubly-punished because of that.

In the 1929 U.S. Open both Bobby Jones and Al Espinaoza hit there drives to the right side of the 1st fairway all five days. They even stated that playing from the rough was abetter option than playing from the left-hand side of the fairway because of how the green sets itself up angularly for the shot being played into it. The green entrance was designed with a series of undulations that roll back up the green. A ball that lands on these coming from the left-hand side of the fairway will always kick and roll to the right and into either the bunker or the rough, but that is only when the ball flight is shallower than today's. That is why more and more good players choose to hit it longer and left knowing that they have just a short wedge into the green.

If you want to see the dramatic difference in playing philosophy that just a few years make, reread Schaap's (?) book on the Massacre at Winged Foot and how badly the 1st hole beat everyone up. Carefully read the players comments, including Nicklaus' own and you'll quickly realize that their second shots were being played with much longer irons than today adn with lower ball flights with less control.

So again, not that players don't fear design features such as severe back of green drop-offs; they do. But I believe that they have much less to fear and show it in the very nature of their play because of technology.

By the way Doug, a better example is the 3rd on the Black. Middle of the green and right if long used to be your ball would careen downhill into impossible woods. Better and more full grass and many fewer trees have greatly reduced the terror of this tee shot result.

Steve Kline

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Re: Architecture that creates fear and affects play
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2008, 06:39:36 AM »
Certainly a steep bank behind or to the side of the puts a great deal of fear into the player wanting to get close to the pin. Think of #3 at Pinehurst #2. It is a short hole - about 5 wood, wedge or sand wedge for me. The green is a skyline green with a severe drop off in the back. When the pin is in the back it is virtually impossible to get back to the pin because the player knows a bogey will be the score if he goes over. However, the fear isn't just that the slope behind the green is severe but that the green is sloping away from the chip as well. So, the chip shot must be played up and over, which always a difficult proposition. The reason a severe slope in front of the green generally does not instill the same level of fear as the one behind or to the side is that generally your chip shot will still be uphill into the slope of the green, making it easier to control and recover for a par.

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