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Mike_Cirba

Change the Flippin' Channel!
« on: May 25, 2008, 11:10:04 AM »
Now, I'd be the first to admit that the Merion threads were over the top, and that in a number of cases, decorum and politeness went out the window, followed quickly by rationality, simple common courtesy, human decency, and ultimately, civilization as we know it descended into primal barbarism. 

At least that's the tabloid version. 

But, hurt feelings and obssessive-compulsive behavior aside, the fact is that it is and was a very deep, detailed, and interesting debate on ARCHITECTURE, and what constitutes ARCHITECHURE, and ARCHITECTURAL HISTORY.  ;D

We can sit here and talk about Natalie Gulbis and Michelle Wie and the NCAA basketball tournament and the hottest new driver, or the REM concert, or the differences between NASCAR and LeMans, and how to get access to courses, and all that stuff, and that's fine, but some of us are actually interested...very passionately...about ARCHITECTURE and ARCHITECTURAL HISTORY. 

So, as a big fan of Free Speech, and the First Amendment, and the United States of America, I would suggest what I suggest to people who complain about Howard Stern on the Radio, or some sexy or violent film on televison.

Do what I do when I see a thread about the Westmiinster Dog Show, or the latest in Beryllium Copper wedges, or do I think TIger will win the Grand Slam this year, or the changes that Rees Jones has made to Torrey Pines and any other clearly NON-architecturally-related topic!  ;)

CHANGE THE FLIPPING CHANNEL!   ::)

No one is making you read these Merion threads!   

If you are, and you hate yourself for it, then you're just as bad as the rest of us, giving you even less room to complain!   ;) ;D
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 11:24:54 AM by MikeCirba »

Kyle Harris

Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2008, 11:11:34 AM »
If you don't like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2008, 01:21:16 PM »
Mike,

I don't see the problem with half-reading the threads, not really understanding everything because I usually skim the individual posts instead of read them (because they are so long and and detailed but I really do try sometimes), and still poking fun at you guys for being a bit over-the-top.   :)

I can't quite summarize my interest in the threads.  It's the same reason I watch C-Span or other things on the TV that I can't explain.  I think I enjoy seeing just how passionate you guys are about the topic more than I care about the specifics of the land-swap, ship manifests, or any of that other stuff. 

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2008, 01:29:21 PM »
Mike....I too am enjoying the Merion threads.....but that doesn't mean you have to knock REM. ;)

There's room for everyone and everything, and when the heat gets a little much....take a little sabbatical....I am......or, like I always like to say: "when the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro"....... :)

« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 01:31:13 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Cirba

Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2008, 01:34:47 PM »
Paul,

I LOVE REM.   Saw them with my daughter about 4years back and we ended up halfway thru ditching our bleacher seats, slipping past security, and ended up stagefront.

Awesome show!

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2008, 01:46:09 PM »
I was in Ohare the other night, and wanted the bartender to find the channel carrying the basketball game. It was tuned in to Larry King, with American idol contestants as guests. I could care less about that.

But, as I asked the bartender to change the channel, I found myself looking around to see if anyone was engrossed in the current programming, and making sure it was OK with everyone if we changed the channel.

This is a similar deal here at GCA.com. Yes, we can choose to tune in or tune out, but the programming has impact on everyone else in the room. In this case, the room happens to be a lot bigger than just us lucky 1500 or so participants. It's an entire world of golf architecture enthusiasts who are looking in. If it was just those of us with an account who were privileged to view the threads and posts, it would be different.

What I post may affect others, and vice versa. It's not just about my own desires of what I want or don't want. It's about representing.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2008, 02:43:44 PM »
Good post my friend.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2008, 04:51:13 PM »
Now, I'd be the first to admit that the Merion threads were over the top, and that in a number of cases, decorum and politeness went out the window, followed quickly by rationality, simple common courtesy, human decency, and ultimately, civilization as we know it descended into primal barbarism. 

At least that's the tabloid version. 

But, hurt feelings and obssessive-compulsive behavior aside, the fact is that it is and was a very deep, detailed, and interesting debate on ARCHITECTURE, and what constitutes ARCHITECHURE, and ARCHITECTURAL HISTORY.  ;D

We can sit here and talk about Natalie Gulbis and Michelle Wie and the NCAA basketball tournament and the hottest new driver, or the REM concert, or the differences between NASCAR and LeMans, and how to get access to courses, and all that stuff, and that's fine, but some of us are actually interested...very passionately...about ARCHITECTURE and ARCHITECTURAL HISTORY. 

So, as a big fan of Free Speech, and the First Amendment, and the United States of America, I would suggest what I suggest to people who complain about Howard Stern on the Radio, or some sexy or violent film on televison.

Do what I do when I see a thread about the Westmiinster Dog Show, or the latest in Beryllium Copper wedges, or do I think TIger will win the Grand Slam this year, or the changes that Rees Jones has made to Torrey Pines and any other clearly NON-architecturally-related topic!  ;)

CHANGE THE FLIPPING CHANNEL!   ::)

No one is making you read these Merion threads!   

If you are, and you hate yourself for it, then you're just as bad as the rest of us, giving you even less room to complain!   ;) ;D

Mike C, MCirba, MPC, MichaelPaulCirba, Foolmetwicesyanorai'mouttahere, MikeC, MikeCirba (I've been paying way to much attention in class)  :D: (bring back the slingblade dirty bunkers avatar!)

You're right, we could change the channel, but it has been riveting theater.  This has been an intensive study of Merion this past 40 days. Thanks.

How should the show end?  I'm not really interested in either side claiming victory, but I am hoping for civility and perhaps friendships to emerge from the contentious debate.  Maybe upon discovery of the real truth of it all, everyone wins.

The best ending would be to read that the four of you, TePaul, Wayne, David and yourself actually PLAYED GOLF TOGETHER after all this.  How bout the Dixie Cup in Tampa?  THAT would be a huge gca party and I'm sure it would be the gca highlight of the year.

I am glad you didn't quit the other day.  Reminded me of when Jason Blasberg quit, poor guy.  Remember, he thought Ran was pimping golfclubatlas.com when the google ads showed up one day.  He didn't bother to ask Ran, just made a damning post, then went and jumped, before Ran explained it was a site-jack and quickly fixed the problem by upgrading the site software.

Really mean that about Dixie Cup.  Why not?



Kyle Harris

Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2008, 06:27:48 PM »
I've been calling Mike to sign up for Dixie Cup for weeks.

[/guilt]

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2008, 06:48:20 PM »
Mike,

We finally agree  ;D

John Kavanaugh

Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2008, 07:12:39 PM »
Paul,

I LOVE REM.   Saw them with my daughter about 4years back and we ended up halfway thru ditching our bleacher seats, slipping past security, and ended up stagefront.

Awesome show!

Why not stay in the seats you paid for?  That says a lot about why this argument won't end.

TEPaul

Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2008, 10:14:55 PM »
"There's room for everyone and everything, and when the heat gets a little much....take a little sabbatical....I am......or, like I always like to say: "when the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro".......;)


Pauley, you're beautiful!


Mike_Cirba

Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2008, 11:31:55 PM »
Joe/Paul,

I do understand what you're saying, and that's a perspective I'll certainly try to be more sensitive and cognizant towards going forward. 

I do believe historically that I have been aware of how widespread and ubuiquitous this site is within the industry, and I believe I've always tried to achieve a level of decorum that is respectful of that fact.

In fact, in thinking about it, the main reason I was such a vocal and passionate advocate for what I believe was the defense of the true story of Merion's origins and Hugh Wilson's historical legacy, was the very thing you mentioned....how widely viewed this site is, and the importance in my mind of being certain that any historical revisions were based on provable facts, and not an interpretation of circumstantial evidence.

Given what's been learned I'd probably do it again.   I simply wish the tone of the discussion had been different, and I have my own share of the blame for that.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2008, 12:36:04 PM »
But, hurt feelings and obssessive-compulsive behavior aside, the fact is that it is and was a very deep, detailed, and interesting debate on ARCHITECTURE, and what constitutes ARCHITECHURE, and ARCHITECTURAL HISTORY.  ;D

Mike,

Are you sure that "discussion" was about architecture?  It seems to me that it may have been about architectural history (maybe), but not architecture.  To me, golf course architecture concerns what is in the ground.  It's not about whether Wilson was in Europe or whether MacDonald was in the conservatory with the lead pipe.  I don't know whether there's any genuine scholarship going on here regarding Merion.  I can say that I'm amazed that grown men would prattle on about this stuff and that it would actually provoke passionate feelings.  The "importance" of understanding the land swap?--I would say none at all, really. 

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2008, 12:43:22 PM »
The elements of the discussion that people object to weren't about architecture or architectural history.  They were personal attacks and petty point scoring.  I wanted to read the threads because they were interesting and because they should have been a demonstration of what can be great here, with hard work and research revealing much of interest about a great course and its creation.  Instead they were unreadable because participants found it impossible to remain civil to each other. 

To use your analagy, Mike, I'm interested in the subject matter of the program, it's the crappy way it has been made I don't like.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2008, 03:38:49 PM »
Tim,

If you don't care who designed Merion or the details surrounding its creation then I'm not sure what to say.   However, the land swap, the timing of the trip overseas, the other seemingly unrelated details are all part of understanding the story, as was the latest revelation discovered earlier today that Hugh Wilson was elected to the Green Committee for the brand-new Princeton Golf Club course a full decade earlier, in 1901, at age 20.

I can't say we've had enough interaction between us on this site for me to know what type of threads interest you, but it seems architectural history isn't your bag.   That's ok...just don't tell us that it shouldn't matter to us.   

Thanks.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2008, 03:41:58 PM »
I couldn't follow it because there were too many threads running in parallel.

can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2008, 04:12:39 PM »
Tim,

If you don't care who designed Merion or the details surrounding its creation then I'm not sure what to say.   However, the land swap, the timing of the trip overseas, the other seemingly unrelated details are all part of understanding the story, as was the latest revelation discovered earlier today that Hugh Wilson was elected to the Green Committee for the brand-new Princeton Golf Club course a full decade earlier, in 1901, at age 20.

I can't say we've had enough interaction between us on this site for me to know what type of threads interest you, but it seems architectural history isn't your bag.   That's ok...just don't tell us that it shouldn't matter to us.   

Mike,

I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be interested in architectural history.  I am suggesting that the arcane details discussed in the Merion threads don't have much to do with the relationship between the golf course (the field of play) and playing golf, which is ultimately what golf course architecture is all about.  In that sense, I'm not sure the Merion threads are any more relevant than threads concerning where to play or events on the PGA Tour. 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Change the Flippin' Channel!
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2008, 04:33:07 PM »
Tim and Mike,

I enjoy the history threads, like the Medinah one last year, where some history was brought to light on the development process. I think its germaine.  I also think the tourney threads are somewhat as well.

Just my opinion.  However, I could understand it if no other club allows permission for its creation history to be dissected here!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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