[Yannick Pilon]

The above pictures are from a course I have worked on recently to redesign greens and all the bunkers.  Our mandate was to differentiate this course from the other one the Club has on the premises, where all the bunkers have simple shapes and clean edges. What you see here is the final look.

A minority of members at the course have mix feelings regarding the playability of the bunkers, or mainly, their surrounds.  While most of the members love the look of the bunkers, and even their playability, some complain about the fact that the fescue is too tough and the fact they can even lose some balls in it if it is left too thick. 

I was wondering if any of you guys belonged to clubs that have similar bunkers with fescue edges.  If so, what was the initial reaction of members when they started playing in those bunkers.  This bunker style seems to be quite in vogue right now, especially on this board with all the Merion threads going….

Just looking for your opinion on this subject….

YP.

PS.  This is the first time I submit stuff I have worked on on this board.  I am open to criticism.  Please, just make it constructive…

[Matt Varney]

Yannick,

These bunkers that you worked on look great.  I love the natural look and it has a very clean presentation that stills appears much more blown-out vs. clean edged bunkers.  I love this style and I think you have done a really nice job.  Especially if you have a nice mix of shallow depth and deep blow out bunkers in the style near the green complexes.

How did you post these nice pics on your GCA post?

Matt

[Jason Topp]

I like the look. . . but it looks really thick.

I cannot imagine the membership view of this stuff improving with time.

I would figure out how to thin it out or get rid of it.

[Jeff Spittel]

I think it looks great. I have never understood how people can complain about being penalized when they hit the ball in or around a hazard.

[Peter Wagner]

Yannick,

I like the look as well.  You may find the following link of interest:

http://geoffdshackelford.squarespace.com/la-cumbre-front-nine-photos/

- Peter

[Dave_Miller]

The above pictures are from a course I have worked on recently to redesign greens and all the bunkers.  Our mandate was to differentiate this course from the other one the Club has on the premises, where all the bunkers have simple shapes and clean edges. What you see here is the final look.

A minority of members at the course have mix feelings regarding the playability of the bunkers, or mainly, their surrounds.  While most of the members love the look of the bunkers, and even their playability, some complain about the fact that the fescue is too tough and the fact they can even lose some balls in it if it is left too thick. 

I was wondering if any of you guys belonged to clubs that have similar bunkers with fescue edges.  If so, what was the initial reaction of members when they started playing in those bunkers.  This bunker style seems to be quite in vogue right now, especially on this board with all the Merion threads going….

Just looking for your opinion on this subject….

YP.

PS.  This is the first time I submit stuff I have worked on on this board.  I am open to criticism.  Please, just make it constructive…

Yannick:
While many people like the look these type of bunker surrounds lead to serious slow play issues and with balls being lost and much time spent looking for them.  Over time it becomes a nightmare.  Find a way to thin them out or consider removing it.
Best
Dave

[Lester George]

Yannick,

Looks good to me.  You will have whining and bitching, but I assume they can play the other course if they don't like it. 

One suggestion....try to wean the edges off of the fertilizer and water which will stress and thin the fescue.  That will make it whispier and easier to get a tough lie without the grass lodging over.  It also adds some brown color which will look good as well.

Lester

[Matt Varney]

Yannick,

I agree with Lester back off the water and fertilizer so they will thin just a little.  What I have found looks great is for the fescue that is close to the fairways and greens to be thinner and as the bunkers moves farther out of the playing corridor the fescue gets much thicker.

You will never make golfers happy and they will always complain about something like tees, fairways and even the green speed even though the greens are perfect.  I think it is totally fair to use fescure at 2"-3" around bunkers like these near fairways and greens.  If the player hits their ball so poorly that it lands at the rear of the bunker or beyond they should be playing a really hard shot from the tall fescue.  The game is about control and precision not just power.

I believe you can build a golf course that is par 70 / 7000 yards from the tips and defend par as a great score with about 100 of these types of bunkers incorporate into the course design on many of your playing angles off the tee and on the approach shots into greens.  With nice semi-wide fairways and smaller green complexes that are protected and crowned with bunkers like these using fescue around the bunkers.   

[Kyle Henderson]

Yannick,

I like the look as well.  You may find the following link of interest:

http://geoffdshackelford.squarespace.com/la-cumbre-front-nine-photos/

- Peter

Thanks for that Link, Mr. W. Highly informative!

[Mike Nuzzo]

Yannick,
Congratulations on the work - I love the look of the textures.
I'd let them settle in for a while - members and bunkers.
I'd remove the whispy stuff on the green side of the bunkers.
For my tastes it is a little too irregular in that it became a bit of a pattern.
I'd water and fertilize as little as possible.
Thank you for sharing.
Cheers

[Matt Varney]

Yannick,

Where is this course located?  You don't have to give the name of the club or course just state or approx. location area.  Again great work and I think they look really good they will grow on the membership and soon they will love the look.

[wsmorrison]

Yannick,

While it is hard to tell with certainty from photos, I love the look of the bunkers and the playability seems fine.  Well done!

[David Stamm]

Yannick,

I like the look as well.  You may find the following link of interest:

http://geoffdshackelford.squarespace.com/la-cumbre-front-nine-photos/

- Peter

Thank you for this, Peter! This is great!

[Kevin_Reilly]

On a recent thread about Mayacama, I raised the same question about playability around this bunker:

[David Stamm]

Yannick, I like the look of the bunkers. Are the edges too penal and difficult to recover from? Perhaps. A ball can plug in sand no matter what the edges look like leaving a very difficult shot.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Very nice, Yannick.

Lester makes a great point about fertilizer and water. Getting back to construction techniques though, relatively impoverished soil (as opposed to rich topsoil) and a lower than recommended seed rate can help as well.

Hopefully Duane Sharpe will chime in here, as he sometimes does.

[Yannick Pilon]

Matt,

Send me an e-mail if you want to know how to post images....  It's a bit tough to explain here....


Peter,

Thanks for the link on La Cumbre.  We actually used a similar technique to create the bunkers I have shown, but with a twist.  We shaped everything with a D5 dozer, and only left a few big capes in the bunkers.  Then I went in and marked the irregular edges with a paint gun, the same way Geoff did at La Cumbre.

After, instead of cutting a shelf and doing some shovel work, we stacked four layers of sod on top of each other, and then added the topsoil behind the "sod walls" we had just created.


Dave,

I understand what you mean, and I am sure some members of the club have suggested just that.  However, I find one of the reason the fescue was so thick at first was the fact that we used fescue sod, whcih is grown-in to be really thick so that it can be stripped and rolled for shipping.  Perhaps in order to gain better results we should've hydro-seeded the fescue using a low application rate.  The only problem is, members usually don't like to wait for grass to grow....  Especially in Quebec where the season is barely 6 months long, if you're lucky, and an avid golfer!


Lester,

I don't really understand what you mean with "try to wean the edges off of the fertilizer and water ".  Could you explain a little further?


Mike,

You know what?  I don't really disagree with you when you say "it is a little too irregular in that it became a bit of a pattern."  Although I am very happy about the results as a whole, we could probably have a smaller number large capes.  This would also help in reducing the amount of fescue in play....

YP

[Yannick Pilon]

Matt,

This is the Verchères course at the Richelieu Valley Golf Club in Ste-Julie, just east of Montreal.

The Rouville course at Richelieu Valley has been the host of two Canadian Opens in 1971 and 1973, one LPGA Canadian Open in 1979, the Skins Game in 1994, and the Senior Canadian Open in 1999.

The Rouville course has always been perceived as the better of the two courses by the members because of all the events it held in the past, which is one of the reason they gave us the mandate to redesign it, amongst other things.


Kevin,

You are right, it can get out of hands if you don't put a bit of care in that fescue....  Although, the super tells me he does not see a big difference in maintaining thos bunkers and their surrounds, as opposed to the more regular bunkers they have on their other course.


Jeff,

I agree with the topsoil suggestion you are making.  On the front nine, the first year of the program, we put the fescue right on top of the sod, and I guess those "sod walls", as they decomposed, produced a lot of nutrients to let that fescue grow wild.

The second year, we used topsoil bags as the edging technique, and the fescue ended up giving us a more uniform look.  I'll have to try the impoverished topsoil the next time...

YP

[Matt Kardash]

It's some nice work, but i think it would look better if the fescue wasn't ONLY surrounding the bunkers...there's nothing natural about that to me. By the way, there's a good chance i'll see your work up close and personal this summer because i'm a member at Le Blainvillier and there is an agreement between the two clubs now to allow members of each club to play each others courses.

[Yannick Pilon]

Matt,

Do you mean tath you would prefer if the fescue was just located on the outside edge of the bunkers and the rest in kentucky?

Once you have a chance at playing the Verchères course, let me know what you think of it.  I would like to hear your comments.

Thanks

YP

[Jim_Coleman]

   I suppose I'm in the minority here, but, although the fescue looks nice, in my opinion it is way too penal.  A bunker should be a 1/2 to one stroke penalty, not 1 1/2 to 2.  Losing a ball in the stuff, or being forced to swing with one foot three feet above the other, only to be able to hack at it so the ball might move a foot, or (if you're lucky) might fall back in the bunker, isn't good architecture to me.  Talk about lack of options (as you guys who hate trees often argue). 

[John Sheehan]

I have never understood how people can complain about being penalized when they hit the ball in or around a hazard.

Jeff,
I have to disagree.  In a solid strategic design, you have to ask yourself, "Is the fescue, particularly thick fescue, and inherent part of the hazard?"  If yes, then the others who have suggested thinning the fescue have a very, very good argument.  If the preferred line of attack is near or around the bunker, shouldn't the person who takes the risk be allowed to recover from the fescue?  Those who point out that the "fescue look" is beautiful (and I agree) but thick fescue is a source of lost balls, slow play and frustration, all have made good points.  I'd thin it out.  Thick fescue is as penal as hitting into a bail of steel wool.  Thinned fescue at least allows you to find your ball and make some sort of recovery shot.

If the fescue is not an inherent part of the bunker, especially in a cross-bunker of strategically placed fairway bunker, shouldn't the reward for clearing the bunker be something a bit more than a) having the forward progress of your shot suddenly halted, or b) having it tangled up in thick fescue?

If the course is a penal design, I don't really care what they do. 

[Matt Kardash]

Yannick,
I think that long fescue around bunkers works best when long fescue is found throughout the golf course, or golf hole! To me it doesn't look more natural to arbitrarily have long grass just around bunkers and basically nowhere else. That's what I mean.

Look at the pics in this thread. the fescue is more predominant, so it looks more natural around the bunkers. I'm not saying you need to have this much fescue, because members would complain, but this gives an idea of what i'm talking about.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34663.0.html

[Sean_A]

Yannick,
I think that long fescue around bunkers works best when long fescue is found throughout the golf course, or golf hole! To me it doesn't look more natural to arbitrarily have long grass just around bunkers and basically nowhere else. That's what I mean.

Look at the pics in this pic. the fescue is more predominant, so it looks more natural around the bunkers. I'm not saying you need to have this much fescue, because members would complain, but this gives an idea of what i'm talking about.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34663.0.html

Matt

I couldn't agree with you more.  The fescue should tie into something else.  In the Mayacama the tie in is obvious, though I think they went overboard with the hair!


BTW In the above photo the layer of rough between the fairway and the bunker goes a long way toward ruining the entire look.  Its one layer too much.

I think the same thing is true of heather around bunkers.  The bunkers themselves are not intrinsically beautiful.  They should be placed to add strategic interest.  If it is possible to dress them up as if they belong then all the better.  Below is an example.


All the heather tie ins make sense for the centre bunker.

Ciao

[Dan Herrmann]

Check out http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=16131008

Jim Wagner, VP and Design Partner of Hanse Golf Design, describes the technique they used at Castle Stuart in Scotland.

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