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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2002, 12:15:06 PM »
Mike - I'm curious what you think the scoring average would have been at the 15th from the traditional 437 back tee, before the hole was "Reesified"?

indulge me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2002, 12:17:33 PM »
Sean,

Are you asking me or Matt?  

I think it still would have been very demanding from the original length, but considering that players would have been approaching it from 130-170 yards or so, albeit steeply uphill, one would think that it would play slightly easier overall.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2002, 12:18:06 PM »
sorry - Matt
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2002, 12:27:44 PM »
SPDB:

Sorry nothing!

The 15th at BB from 437 yards would not have played like some par-4 at the Hope Classic if that's what you're implying.
PULEEZE!!! You're still going to get a high stroke average for the week even from this tee position.

Mike and I fundamentally disagree about this peculiar hair splitting disucssion between being a tough par and making "higher numbers." I don't believe the people advocating the side of PV's #1 and #2 understand the level of players at the Open and those at the GAP. That's point one.

Second, the 15th at BB has no easy play or "safe" way to guarantee no more than bogey. I don't concede the tee shot is that easy at the 15th because plenty of the world's best found the rough and some even the hay! As Geoffrey C correctly points out even laying up before the high starts doesn't give you much of an opportunity because missing either left or right / short or long can spell really BIG NUMBERS!

One other aspect that has been missing in this discussion is the nature of the green at the 15th. It's absolutely one of the most demanding on Long Island.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2002, 01:50:55 PM »
Matt:

I can't say a thing about BB's #15 because I don't know the hole or the course well at all.

But as to your first point about GAP area players and the difference between them and the tour pros, we around here DO know what the difference is and frankly we know what the difference is a lot better than you do because unlike you we know who all these players are what they've done, can do etc.

But again, you're talking about PV, in my opinion, in a bit too general a sense. Like many of the great designs in the country including Seminole, Shinnecock, Pinehurst, Oakmont etc the spectrum of the course to create difficulty is immense, without going over the top! It's because the designs are remarkably sophisticated, but particularly the greens of Pine Valley.

Because they are what they are the difference between the greens at 9 compared to 11 is an increase of speed by a bit over 20% but when you take the greens from 9 to 11 you're increasing the difficulty of scoring on that course even for very good players by at least five times!! And by increasing the speed by that amount you're not taking the course or the greens over the top either. However, if you stepped it up on more foot to 12--boom!!--almost every hole can be almost unplayable!!

That's one thing and the second and more important factor for GAP players or even tour players is PV is a course that takes enormous amounts of experience to play well by understanding how to minimize errors--maybe one of the highest experience factor course in the entire world.

Probably the best single example of that is the Sunday Crump Cup pin on #1 that wasn't used for the Philly Open. Sure, if they used it at the Open the caddies would have explained to the players what the danger was but I guarantee even explaining it those players who hadn't ever experienced it would not really help them fully understand it!

And there's just so much of that kind of thing on that course at that particular set up and speed--and the interesting thing is it was not over the top.

Many of those players were hitting real quality shots but making ever so slight errors in judgement on the management side and it would inevitably cost them in strokes! I could tell by looking at those players and their reactions--they were doing what they meant to do many times and were amazed that it didn't work and sometimes REALLY didn't work! That's simply the very slim margins for error and understanding them and where they are!

A good player can look at the course and those greens real hard and sort of understand and the Pine Valley caddies will tell them but still strange things can happen that you wouldn't expect (at those speed--that again are not over the top!) unless you have real experience on that course.

Not all that long ago they held a competition at Pine Valley between the best Met amateurs and the best GAP amateurs and the GAP amateurs absolutely crucified the MET players who were probably just as good as the GAP players on any other course!

Why did that happen? Because the GAP loaded their team up with some very good GAP players that were almost all members of PV. The experience factor alone basically blew away the Met players.

It was not lost on any of us from around here before the tournament that Chris Lange a good GAP amateur who's been around a long time had a real shot at beating the pros on Monday and winning the Philly Open. And sure enough he finished third a single shot out of the playoff. He just knows that course, it's subtelies and sophistication like the back of his hand--nobody has to tell him about it or explain to him what to do and not to do!

Tour players, again, would of course do better there but still they'd have to really manage their games there well with that kind of setup or they'd get hurt score-wise too.

A great course manager and player like Tiger could probably really go low but a player like John Daly whose ball striking, touch, everything else is superb could fail to break 80 at PV in a heartbeat if he failed to think well there!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2002, 02:33:16 PM »
TEPaul:

The issue is not about PV's overall greatness or the ability of GAP players in the Phillie Open. I said that a few times already. Hello anybody listening. The issue is about the demands for high numbers of PV's 1st and 2nd versus that of BB's 15th. That's it -- nothing more. Since you admit you are not familiar with the 15th at BB it becomes a moot point for you to discuss the comparison at issue here.

Mike Cirba believes that higher numbers are possible at #1 and #2 at PV versus the 15th at BB. I disagree with that.

Like you -- I would love to see world class profesisonal play PV under optimum conditions to see what they would do. Will PV do that? Only they know the answer to that question.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2002, 02:44:09 PM »
Matt - I mean to imply that not all of the high scoring average at BB 15 lies in the green end, a decent amount (certainly not negligible) can be directly attributed to the added yardage. I don't really think that's disputable.

I don't mean to suggest that 15 is an easy hole, that would be a ridiculous assertion. I am just saying that the difficulty disparity between the two holes is not as wide as you would have it, and even comparing the scoring averages is not that instructive, since on the one hand you have BB with it's added length clearly frustrating the scoring average, and on the other you have amateur (and some former pro) players playing PV #1. I think those two factors might net each other out and leave the two holes playing pretty close together with respect to scoring averages.

Would your assessment change at all if the tee at 15 were played from it's traditional design location, and the tee at PV #1 were taken back to say 450-60?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2002, 03:20:03 PM »
TEPaul,

I'm not so sure that anyone understands the enormous gap between GAP pros and PGA Tour Pros.  It is huge.

I played with Rick Hartman, one of the best pros in the MET area and Parnevik, just before the Ryder Cup.  Hartman and he have been friends for years.  Hartman has won everything in the MET area, shot incredible scores in competition and qualified for Majors.  They were playing a match with money on the line.  Hartman was playing him shot for shot.  
I commented to Rick, "You can play with these guys"  
His response, "When it comes to tournaments,
Parnevik is TEN (10) shots per round better than he is"

When one of the BEST five players in the MET area says that some of these guys are TEN (10) shots per round better,
I don't think it would be a stretch to say that they're probably
15 shots per round better than the average player in the GAP championship.  AND, it's not that the players in the GAP championship aren't very good players, they are, but the PGA tour player is just incredibly good.

If PGA tour players shoot very low scores at Pine Valley, it doesn't diminish the value, challenge and enjoyment derived in playing the golf course.

When the course was built, I doubt anyone visualized drives carrying 325 yards or more, and five (5) irons from 210 yards.

My question is, was Pine Valley ever intended to be a championship course for medal play ?  Or was match play the championship format in mind ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2002, 03:47:57 PM »
Shivas,

I'd be happy to accept the wager with you and Tom Paul.

And as an enticement, I'm willing to make a sporting concession and boost the differential to twenty (20) shots on your behalf.   ;D

I would imagine that the first tee jitters at the US OPEN, British Open, Masters or PGA would probably account for five (5) shots on the first hole alone.  You'd be right on pace at
twelve over for the first six (6) holes.

Just look at the very good local pro's who qualify for the US OPEN, and shoot 88-86 when the better Tour players are shooting 66-68.

When it comes to the law, I'll take your word for it.
When it comes to competitive golf, I'll take Rick Hartman's, who also played on the European Tour for some time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2002, 04:03:45 PM »
Patrick,

C'mon...15 shots is stretching it...

As a player I know how huge the gap is between the tour players and the field at the GAP Open.  That being said, I would quit my job today to play matches against tour players if they were willing to give me 15 shots a round.

I'm not that great of a player, but over a 4 day tourney I'm confident I could keep my score within 60 shots of a tour player.

I agree 100% with your point about the original designer never envisioning 300 yd drives and 200 yd 5 irons.  I played PVGC in late June with some friends and we had that very discussion after the round.  We all agreed that just over the last couple of years that technology had really changed the clubs you could hit from the tees at PV. Except for a couple holes, driver is no longer an option.  I think it is now an easier course off the tee, but no less imposing for shots into the greens and play on and around the greens.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2002, 04:08:02 PM »
Can I get a piece of the action on Jamie getting 15 a round from a tour player?  I'll take him against Duffy Waldorf, currently leading the open.  My house stands ready to be wagered.

Don't let me down, Jamie.   ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #61 on: July 18, 2002, 04:12:29 PM »
Shivas,

Look at all these great players on the mini tours, buy.com, Nike, etc., etc..   They shoot twenty four under par for tournaments, but can't qualify for the big dance, the PGA tour.

Teeing it up with your wife and/or friends is one thing.
Teeing it up when it counts at a MAJOR is a world of difference, especially when you know your competition is so much better than you.  The pressure is stifling.

I've known Rick for some time, and it's not his nature to exagerate.

Those guys are that good !

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2002, 04:26:29 PM »
In a round where the other two players are you and me, shivas, I take Gib.  He shoots 77 there with his eyes closed lecturing us on the "sexy" rolls in front of the greens.  We could also massively screw with Duval.

In the first round of the USOpen, well, that would mean Gib has actually concentrated on getting good at the game - he qualified after all.  So it's his home course, he has thousands of people rooting for him who all hate Duval... and Gibby decides to save architecture critiques for later and grind out a score???

I believe this new and improved Gibby could shoot 84 under Open conditions without much effort.  Does Duval have a 68 in him?  Well, I'll still take Gib.  But lets keep the wager low.

Give me Jamie Slonis who actually does play competitive golf and yes, I shall wager my horribly overpriced Silicon Valley house.  Sorry, Duval doesn't have a 62 in his bag.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #63 on: July 18, 2002, 04:41:56 PM »
Tom,

I appreciate you backing me on the wager...
No problem...I'm sure I'd be less nervous playing for your house instead of mine  ;D

There is no question in the world that the tour players are far better than local pro's and top am's, but people also must remember that on TV on the weekend you are only seeing the guys that are on the top of their game that particular week.  There are plenty of good players that didn't make the cut, and shot 72-75 or something to that effect.

I know many guys that would bet they could shoot within 15 shots of the average daily score on tour every week.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #64 on: July 18, 2002, 04:50:06 PM »
SPDB:

Appreciate your point but consider this: the nature of the approach to #15 is still the same. Yes, the club being hit into it may be somewhat less but you still must hit a green that is 40 feet above you and is angled slightly from left to right with danger lurking at all sides. No escaping that reality.

You ask about PV's first hole playing longer. In my mind that would not make that much difference -- in fact, it might assist you in club selection because at its present length you have to be concerned that you don't go through the dog-leg and reach the rough on the other side.

I would urge those who have not played #15 recently to see how the hole is TODAY. Even at 437 yards it's still one tough, tough hole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #65 on: July 18, 2002, 05:12:40 PM »
Shivas,

Actually, I haven't had the chance to play with any current tour players.

I've played with guys that eventually became pro's, and have played with a couple former tour players, but that's about all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #66 on: July 18, 2002, 05:13:46 PM »
Jamie - your rep as a player is well known here in this group... and let's just say that on top of that I for one was damn impressed with your scores at the GAP Open at PV - no way any pro beats you by 30 that day!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #67 on: July 18, 2002, 05:17:17 PM »
Pat:

You said that you and Hartman think that a tour player would be 10-15 shots per round better than the players in the Philly Open when playing in 'tournaments'? Could you explain which players in the Philly Open you're talking about?

You said 'tournaments' or did you mean the US Open or something like the Philly Open at Pine Valley last Monday.

I'll tell you what--Hartman may be the best player in the Met section but if it's true that Parvenik is going to be 10 shots better than he is per round in 'tournaments' then we've got at least 50 players down here would could consistently wipe out Hartman!

You've said some pretty weird things on here in the past Pat--but this one absolutely takes the cake!

Let's hope you're referring to the average score in the Philly Open and working from there. But Appleget and DeMarco finished 36 holes at +4. So you and Hartman think Parvenik would have finished at -16?

Wouldn't that be 10 shots per round difference! That would average to 62 per round in the Philly Open and it's tournament setup for Parvenik!

That kind of score has never been shot at Pine Valley Pat, much less twice in one day!

Just either redefine what you and Hartman are trying to say  or admit once and for all that you typed some pretty dumb thoughts and hit the post button prematurely!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #68 on: July 18, 2002, 05:25:57 PM »
Tom H,

Thanks...but...

I wasn't all that happy with my scores that day, they reflect some very mediocre iron play and putting, but I'd take my chances getting 30 shots from any tour player.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #69 on: July 18, 2002, 05:27:22 PM »
Jamie - oh I know, you surely can do better than your performance at the GAP.  Still, those were quite respectable scores and oh yes, I like your chances getting 30 from Tiger!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #70 on: July 18, 2002, 05:38:15 PM »
Jamie:

Obviously Pat Mucci will come back and redefine what he said somehow. This is about Hartman (the best player in the Met area) against Parvenik in 'tournaments'--whatever that means--and the fact that Parvenik is 10 shots better per round.

But if those guys want to wager you against Parvenik in 'tournements' and give you 30 shots over 36 holes--I too will stake you to anything you want or they will take as a wager.

It's a no-brainer that we will own those exaggerating New Yorkers in no time at all!

Ironically, the one guy who wouldn't touch that wager (after seeing you play) would be Jesper himself! He may eat volcanic sand but he knows golf and a golfer when he sees one much better than those guys do apparently!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #71 on: July 18, 2002, 06:52:08 PM »
TEPaul,

The ironic thing here is that(Tiger is once in a lifetime & I surely respect is greatness) Jesper is my favorite player on tour. Although he is having one of his worst years on tour, I have always liked the fact that he is not your "cookie cutter tour pro".  

I saw him last year in the Excelon Invitational at Inniscrone, it was great fun.

The volcanic sand is no longer a dietary staple, but from what I do know he is a health nut, good food, yoga, etc.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #72 on: July 18, 2002, 07:36:59 PM »
I think this wager can be arranged! It might take a little time and some arm-twisting but we do need to teach these exaggerating New Yorkers a lesson!

Pine Valley should be the venue. Somehow we'll get them to set it up like the Philly Open for one day. We can get Jesper down there no problem--don't worry about that!

Huge wagers with these New Yorkers that Parvenik cannot clip you by 20-30 shots over 36 at PV in one day!

Obviously Jesper himself will not want to put real money on those ridiculous terms but if he loses I've got a deal worked out on that too.

I know you're happily married with nice young children and all Jamie but if Jesper loses to you on those terms and conditions (which he will) what he has to do is introduce you to that   otherwordly looking Swede's sister (also otherworldly looking)  he introduced to Tiger who is now his girlfriend.

I don't want to wreck you marriage or anything but you're perfectly capable of deciding for yourself what you want to do with Jesper's payment, as far as I'm concerned!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2002, 08:31:32 PM »
Let's see...

Rick Hartman played on the European Tour for a while, he says Parnevik is 10 shots a round better than him...

What the hell is Jesper doing wasting his time in the US when there are so many pigeons across the pond waiting for him?!? Sounds like Nelson's streak would be gone in less than a full season!

Exaggeration or erroneous... take your pick, no way this one's true.

-------

P.S. to the 15 BB issue players -

What exactly was the point of all the bickering? Didn't 2 of the par "4s" at Pinehurst average higher over par - I think 5 & 16 or something like that? Who cares? So maybe 15 BB is tougher than 1 & 2 PV - how does one make the leap that there must have been weak players in the GAP tournament? What kind of logic is that? Duval butchered the Road Hole in 2000 - does that mean there were weak players in the field at that year's Open?  ?? ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re: The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!
« Reply #74 on: July 18, 2002, 09:01:33 PM »
You're right George--I really don't know why this topic needs to devolve down to some comparision to Bethpage Black's #15!

If you compared those two courses and these different fields (GAP Open participants vs tour pros) at all this is what I would say about the two courses and the GAP vs the Tour players..

If Tour players played Pine Valley with the Philly Open setup a number of the tour players would probably go fairly low but by no means all of them!

But if the GAP Open participants played Bethpage Black with the conditions of the US Open no one in the field would remotely even sniff par.

Actually they once did that apparently at Baltusrol with some of the best mid-ams--gave them the Open set up to see how they'd handle it. Something like one or two of them broke 80!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »