The Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley!

[GeoffreyC]

Mike

The grandstand to the right of the 15th at Bethpage blocked balls from running all the way down the hill into never never land at the US Open.  Missing right on 15 at BB without grandstands to block the ball is just as dead as missing 1 at PV.  Missing left at 15 on BB leaves you with a swing and full view of the target but the target is impossible to hold from that side.  Finally, the green at #15 is diabolical and probably harder to putt then #1 (but not #2) at PV.  Its as tough an SOB par 4 as I've ever seen and the consequences of missing the target with the 2nd shot are every bit as harsh.

[ChipOat]

Matt Ward:

The hardest part about a bad shot at Pine Valley is that you almost always find your ball and your attractive drop options are usually non-existant.  Walk back and re-load is often the best option (for which there is no provisional once your ball is found).

At Bethpage #15, a drop can usually limit your damage.  At Pine Valley (expecially around the 1st green), a drop usually accomplishes nothing.

Yes, it's true.  If you miss a shot, Pine Valley is usually harder to salvage bogey/double bogey than Bethpage Black under U.S. Open conditions.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I don't doubt the severity of each side at #1 at PV. I've played there enough times over the years to know what you are speaking about.

However, the approach to the 15th is WITHOUT QUESTION one of the most demanding that exists in America! You cannot miss period and the distance you are covering is no small matter -- in addition, you must also provide the necessary trajectory in reaching the target 40 feet above the fairway. I also would not concede anything even after you reach the green because of the contours you face.

PV has a great opening hole but the club selection between the two is not even close in my mind. At the 1st at PV a good player should be hitting no more than mid-to-short iron. At the 15th at BB you will see mid-to-long irons and sometimes even a wood if conditions turn sour as they did on Open Friday.

Mike -- PV is a great, great course but the match-up between the 1st there and the 15th at BB is not in the same territory. Just an opinion ...

[TEPaul]

Matt Ward:

Clearly the players in the Philly Open are not the same quality as PGA Tour players but they are very good players nonetheless!

You seem to be trying to estimate how a tour caliber player would have fared at PVGC on Monday and of course they would have scored better than the Philly Open competitors but how much better is the question.

PGA tour players would have obviously been under par but how much and how many of them is the question. Certainly not all of them would have been and I really doubt even a tour player winner would have torn up PV Monday in 36 holes of stroke play.

The reason is pretty simple really. When you make a mistake at Pine Valley you can really pay in strokes no matter who you are. In some areas of the course particularly on and around the greens the margins for error are slim and the payment can be severe for anyone--even tour players!

PVGC can hold it's own--it sure proved that from what I saw. The shot quality all day was high and good! Decision making and management may not have been close to tour caliber but still the course proved itself. The extremely high numbers you saw +20, +30 was probably as much players lossing their concentration or getting desperate etc as anything else.

There is one thing at PV in a tournament set up like Monday that's very clear---no player can force their hand on that golf course--if they do it's going to get you eventually no matter who you are--particularly in 36 holes in one day.

There's one other thing I noticed there from seeing the whole field come through twice. Some of these balls they're using (mostly Pro V1s) just simply spin too much in certain areas--like for instance where the pin was on #8. I saw a few players spin the ball from the very back right off the front. What those players couldn't seem to see or understand is you can't do that on holes like that--it was almost like backing the ball down three steps of stairs.

I'm convinced to really play PV well you not only have to play very well you also have to really understand its architecture--and it's very little like a normal golf course that way!

[JSlonis]

TEPaul,

What you said about the new golf balls is definitely correct. 2 weeks ago I switched to the Pro V1 star ball because it is supposed to spin less than the original Pro V1.  The rain we got on Sunday really softened the greens in the morning round at PVGC.

On #8, I knew it was going to be tough to keep the ball on the correct level of the green, I landed two shots on the proper level only to watch them both come rolling off the front of the green.  I tried to take the spin off of both shots and try to land them dead, but to no avail.(got it up & down twice though)

Matt,

With technology what it is today, Pine Valley is relatively short...tour players might only hit 1 driver off the tee if any at all.  The defense of the golf course are the greens. Like any championship course, depending on how firm and fast the greens are, directly relates to how low the scores will be.

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

The issue here is not the quality / greatness of PV. That's not my point. The issue is Mike Cirba saying, "Yes, the first and second holes at PV are tougher than the 15th at Bethpage...."

You're right -- you can't compare the results of local club pros and amateurs against the world's best. I've often wondered why PV doesn't have some sort of exhibition of the game's top players in current times. Is it fear the layout might get torched for a very low round? Would that take away from some of the mystic that has built up over the years? Yes, I don't doubt there are areas on the course that would make for impossible recoveries even from the best players in the world. On the other hand, there are plenty of opportunities
where a world class pro will roll off a few birdies too.

My issue initially wasn't about PV's greatness -- that's a no-brainer. It's about the demands / greatness of the 1st at PV versus the 15th at BB. Anyone who has played both I believe knows the easy answer to that question.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

You are missing my qualifying statment...;

"After one screws up."

I just think recovery is more difficult on either of the first two holes at PV (particularly the 1st) than at 15 BB.  Given the relatively narrow green, once you miss it to either side or long, you can literally shoot ANYTHING.

Also, wayward drives are more severely punished on both 1&2 at PV than at 15 BB.  Once again, once you get in trouble, ANY number becomes a possibility.

I've played both, and that's my opinion.

And yes, the 15th at BB is a tougher hole to par, no question.    

[SPDB]

Matt - how many yards has the 15th at BB traditionally played to, i.e. pre-open.

[Matt_Ward]

SPDB:

Prior to Rees Jones the 15th hole played 437 yards and there was a fairway bunker on the right side that never came into play for top players.

A new tee (457 yards) was played throughout the Open. Rees added another rear tee at 478 yards but Tom Meeks believed this would make the hole too tough. I tend to agree with his assessment although I would have loved to seen the big boys play from there for at least one round.

In addition, the 478 yard tee was where the grandstands were placed to allow for more space for gallery / viewing.

One last point -- Geoffrey C is quite correct. The high rough cut around the green PREVENTED balls from bounding into all sorts of situations (most not good!). I also believe the club should look into the possibility in expanding the bottom third of the green to give another pin placement for the green.

Hope this helps ...

[ChipOat]

Matt Ward:

See my previous post.

I've played both (admittedly not actually IN the Open but 4 weeks prior) and I re-submit that Mike is correct.  If you miss either green, a 5 or 6 is easier to come by at BB #15 than PV #1 and, arguably, #2 as well.

At Bethpage, at least there's a place to drop and take an unplayable.  At Pine Valley #1, other than short left, you have no drop that's better than where you already sit!

[Ken_Cotner]

OK, you are one stroke ahead in the Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley, with a 4-foot putt to win by one stroke.  Make it, you win and go home.  Miss it, you tie for first...and have to come back to play 18 more at PV the next day!

Whaddya do?  

KC

[Bruceski]

Enough delusions. No course at 6700 yds can protect itself from the skill of today's modern pro. Sorry. Most of the top 100 in the world would steamroll PV in its current form. I'm sounding like a broken record, but give these pros an 8-iron approach shot (which they'll hit from 175 yds) and they'll laserbeam the ball to within 20 feet every time. I saw it time after time with mine own eyes at the U.S. Open -- to VERY tucked pins at the edge of the green and behind the bunkers.

Final point: last week's Greater Milwaukee played to about the same distance, and saw Jeff Sluman nearly breaking the tournament record. I repeat, Jeff Sluman. We're not talking about one of elite pros, here. Without some added length, there comes a point when no amount of classic architecture can stand up to today's pros.

[Craig Rokke]

The course feature that really struck me was how much trouble a slightly errant shot can get you into, especially on some of the approaches. I can not imagine a more strategically demanding or beguiling golf course than Pine Valley. What an achievement by Crump, and what a fantastic day of golf spectating!

[Matt_Ward]

chipoat, Mike C, et al PV 1st & 2nd hole defenders:

The problem with your logic is that many people who play PV's 1st attempt to "push the medal" with the approach and try to get deep into the pin placement when its in the rear position. If you need to make a safe bogey you simply lay-up in front of the green and can almost guarantee no worse than 5.

Mike, you make the assumption that Bethpage Black #15 provides easier recovery. From where I might ask? I saw the Open and the world's best -- not regional club pros and highly skilled amateurs no doubt.

Mike -- if the 15th made for easier recoveries you would not have seen the stroke average of 4.60. You know the greatness of the hole -- Tiger sealed the Open when he steadied himself on Saturday's third round and made birdie there when everyone else is throwing up their guts on the hole.

Here are a few other stats to consider about BB's 15th --

Green in regulation for the week -- only 38%!
Cost of rough in terms of strokes -- 0.626!!
Only 28 birdies for THE WEEK -- two other holes at BB had lower totals -- the 8th and 10th!!!
44 Double Bogeys and 9 famous 'OTHERS!!!!

Mike -- with no disrespect to you, PV or the players in the GAP but the 15th has no "safe" way to play it. I also take issue when you say other numbers come into play but not at BB's 15th. There are plenty of numbers you can make at the 15th.

I will also submit that the approach to the 15th at BB is one of the most demanding from the wide assortment of courses I've ever played. If people can tell me what's more demanding I'll be happy to see their listing because it won't be that long for to read for sure.

[GeoffreyC]

I'm with Matt on this one.  If we're talking about elite players be they local pros or PGA tour quality pros then lets consider factors like the size of the respective greens and the width of the fairways.  The greens at PV are huge and the fairways generous.  When Chip or others talk about HUGE numbers possible on #1 and 2 at PV but not at BP 15 I think they forget about how good these players are and overestimate the greed factor.  If an elite player wants to make a possible par and sure bogey its certainly possible at PV #1 and 2 by playing conservatively.  How many elite players with modern equipment and average length would conservatively not hit the first fairway with a long iron or 3-wood at most and then play to the very front of the green?  Similarly, how many would hit iron off the 2nd tee and then play to the center of the huge 2nd green without getting into a position that's impossible to escape?

The 15th green is a MUCH smaller target to hit and you're playing from much further away. They've really cleaned up the right side of #15.  In past days there was brush, a tree, a fence and all sorts of unplayable garbage down there that also left you no place to drop but where you last hit your approach from.  Its cleaned up now but its still a hell of a hard shot with no sure bogey.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul & Jamie Slonis,

Everyone seems to have forgotten one of Pine Valley's greatest defenses, its greens.

What were they putting at ??

[Mike_Cirba]

Bruceski;

What about Lytham last year?  What was different about that course at 6,800 yards?  Did it not adequately test the world's best?

What about TPC Sawgrass?  Is it a pushover at distances less than 7,000 yards?

Matt/Geoffrey;

I've already conceded that 15 at BB is a tougher par.  My argument is simply that it's easier to make 6, 7, 8 or whatever on PV 1 & 2 simply by overly aggressive play, or through misstruck shots.  

Basically, as tough as any recovery on BB 15 might be, recovery on the other two is more risky.

[Bruceski]

Mike Cirba,

Sawgrass plays to just under 7000. So it's not in the league of a 6700 yd course.

But, fine, if you narrow Pine Valley's fairways to those of a U.S. Open or British Open setup, then of course you could make it less of a pushover. But wouldn't narrow fairways be changing PV's current design too drastically?

Prior to the U.S. Open many local tournaments similar to the Philadelphia Open were played at Bethpage Black, and the winner would often come in at slightly above par. But no one would have claimed that the setup for those tournaments would have been hard for the PGA Tour pro. The USGA knew this, and it was interesting and disconcerting to me how much the Black had been further "hardened" for the U.S. Open by the par-protecting USGA.

My point? There's no way to extrapolate the difficulty of Pine Valley for the PGA Tour pro based on a local pro's performance at the Philadelphia Open. The difference between the level of skill of a Tour pro and a local pro is enormous. Likely, the setup for the Philadelphia Open would be extremely easy (and too short) for the PGA pro.

[redanman]

Matt Ward

You seem to be perplexed to see # 1 and # 2 play so much over par.  THe really big numbers come into play there, that's why.  Misses at #1 can lead to 7 or 8 easily; the green, so elevated and so contoured at #2 make 3-5 putts common even with good players.  I think hte numbers would be only a little lower if the holes fell at #15 or so, but still I think it is the really big number that come in to play, I'd like to know the distribution of "others" on those holes.

Also, the really good amateur (Save those despicable re-instated 5-season pros masquerading as amateurs) and club pros are quite different from even journeyman pros from mini tours as far as the overall scores, IMHO.

[TEPaul]

Bruceski:

Sure the skill level is higher on the PGA Tour compared to local section pros and good amateurs. The ball striking is not all that much different however. The local guys obviously will miss shots more than the Tour pros but probably half the field in the Philly Open hit the ball about the same places with the same clubs as most tour pros.

After that it really gets down to decision making and management and that's what you need to do well at PV and obviously that's where the tour pro caliber player really shines.

At the Excelon exhibition with Toms, Furyk, Kuchar and Daly, Kuchar explained that the difference between Buy.Com players and the big tour players was basically that the swings on the Buy.com may even be better but the management ability on the big Tour was better. He explained that they don't really make more birdies on the big tour but they manage the mistakes they make better.

And clearly that's the way a tour player could and would play Pine Valley.

But still, Bruceski, with a really good tournment setup like they had Monday at PV a tour player certainly could get hot but the odds of that happening consistently at a course like PV is not that good, even for them.

For you to say that the tour player would laserbeam and do a scoring number on PV just because they're better clearly shows to me that you neither know well nor really understand PV and how differerent it can be for any player under certain conditions.

And to answer Matt Ward about whether PV would consider having an exhibition of tour players or not and if they're worried that might expose the course as not as challenging as it's rumored to be--well I think that's ridiculous. Pine Valley has held exhibitions in the past with tour players and they have not torn the course up score-wise and there's no reason to assume that would happen today if they set the course up for them the way it can be without being over the top.

All I can say to those opinons is they make think they know Pine Valley because they may have played it but they don't really know it, don't really understand it or what it's capable of doing to any player and without even being setup all that terribly tricky.

[Matt_Ward]

redanman:

I'm not perplexed at all by the demands presented by PV's #1 & #2 holes. They are superb holes indeed. That's never been my issue.

What I have said is that the world's best stepped up to the plate at the 15th at BB (played it from middle tees  ) and were at 4.60 for the WEEK! Unless I am mistaken that is one of the highest over-par averages ever recorded during an Open.  

Bring the world's best to PV and play to the same conditions experienced at the GAP Open and the demands of #1 #2 of PV versus #15 at BB is NO CONTEST!

There are plenty of numbers in play at BB's #15. I've seen plenty of top flight amateur and pro events at the Black including the Met Open, NY Open, Met Public Links (played in it) and various USGA qualifiers over the years (even before the modifications). The 15th yields nothing. Sometimes even luck plays a hand in your outcome depending upon the receptivity of the putting surface.

Geoffrey C is quite correct -- they have cleaned up the right side because if you landed in that area before you were deader than Elvis.

But, it's really silly when people claim the 15th at BB is hard to par but unlikely to give you really high scores when using as a cross reference the experience of competitors in the GAP Open. That's not even night and day -- it's months and decades apart. And, I again I emphasize I say that with no disrespect to those who competed at the world's premier golf course -- PV, which for you Pennsy guys is in JOY-Z.

[JSlonis]

Patrick,

I stated above exactly what you said...the premier defense of Pine Valley are the greens.

I would say they were about 10-11 on the Stimp on average.  The overall speed was not a problem, the difficulty came from the hole locations.  Many were in very difficult positions, towards the edges or just over humps and tiers. It was very difficult to get the ball close or in a spot where you could be aggressive with your putts. A quick rundown of some of the tougher locations:

#1.  Back left
#2.  All the way back in the middle
#3.  Back left corner
#4.  Front 1/3 on the right, just on top of the tier.
#5.  Back right
#7.  Very front middle over downslope
#8.  Left front just over tier
#9.  Back right(left green)
#10. Back left on the shelf
#15. 2/3 Back on right
#16. Front right on top of small shelf
#17. 2/3 Back right just over tier

[Fred Ruttenberg]

Clearly the local pros are not in the same league as touring pros(I assume touring pros are around plus 4 and the local pros are 0). What I meant by  "there were no waek players in the field" was  that the local pros were selected by a qualification process (as were the amateurs) so only the strongest in these catagories were playing. This is much different than a qualifying event for the US Open where the criteria is either being a pro or having the appropriate handicap index. In these events we always have players who don't belong and therefore raise the average score per hole.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

For discussion purposes, let's just assume the 60 players in the GAP event are all around scratch, with some of them former touring pros.  

For two rounds, the scoring distribution on #1 was as follows;

8 Birdies
43 Pars
36 Bogeys
23 Doubles
10 Others

One competitor played it 3 in the morning, 8 in the afternoon.

Another went 4 then 9.

Could you explain to me how a scratch golfer, who finished in the middle of the pack at +17 overall, makes an 8 or 9 on #15 at Bethpage Black?  

All I'm really trying to point out is that it has a higher "disaster quotient".  Yes, 15 at Bethpage is EXTREMELY demanding as a par four.  Any hole 460 yards with the green 40 feet above the fairway calling itself a par four would be a test for anyone.  Any yes, I do realize there is more to the hole than that.  However, the drive, other than needing to be long, really isn't risky at all.  It seems to me that it simply creates a go/no go situation depending on where one has driven.  I recognize that the area around the green and the green itself can be brutally tough, as well, but I think the odds of a player walking away with a score in the range of 4-6 is much better than at PV's #1.  

In fact, it's interesting to me that it also yielded 8 birdies and a solid number of pars.  When scores range from 3 to 9 on a golf hole played by scratch players, you don't get much more interesting than that, in my opinion.

[GeoffreyC]

Jamie- those were some tough pins.

Tom Paul- I think you hit the nail on the head here.  It wasn't me who said the tour guys would light up Pine Valley.  I did say that they could avoid the big numbers due to their course management if they choose not to play agressively (#5 may be the one exception).  The fairways are generous and the greens huge.  Do you agree?

#15 at BB really has no bailouts.  YOu have to fire it up there to a very small target.  Even laying up so you have a sand wedge 3rd requires an almost blind severely uphill shot that I saw numerous pros have great trouble with at the US Open.