[TEPaul]

Pine Valley held the Philadelphia Open on Monday (45 pros, 15 amateurs). This was the first outside tournament they'd held since the Walker Cup in 1985.

Obviously, many were interested to see how the course would stand up to some of today's longer players and how they'd score on it!

The Philly Open is a one day 36 hole stroke play event and to say the course stood up well to scoring is a bit of an understatment! Two tied at 144 (+4)--John Appleget and John DeMarco and they played off the following day in 18 holes--Appleget won!

As to exactly how and why Pine Valley stood up so well to scoring is interesting and somewhat complex and says reams about it's inherent and overall design.

I don't have time to get into what I think right now but I'm sure someone like Jamie Slonis (who played in it) will be on this thread and explain what he thinks!

[Will W]

holes 1 - 3 were ranked 1st, 2nd and 5th hardest for the open.  scoring averages were 4.92, 4.88 and 3.62.   was this mostly a case of nerves or the demands that crump placed on the start of the course?

for the competitors starting on 9, the stretch from 9 - 11 was not as difficult, ranking 7th, 6th and 13th, scoring averages of 4.52, 3.55, and 4.32.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here's the results:

http://gap.bluegolf.com/play/summary.htm?h=gapo&c=7b4817b3-48e6-403e-83c3-665d77f51fc6


Looks like the 5th hole had Jamie's number.  Jamie had the par 5's down pat, tying for best overall performance on the par 5's at -1 overall.

Overall, #1 and #2 were the two hardest holes, in that order.  #5 was 3rd toughest and #3 was 5th toughest.  That's one tough start.

Easiest hole was the short par 4 #12.

[Mike_Cirba]

Interesting that only 10 competitors finished at better than +10.  

The remainder of the field were from +10 to +37, with most bunched around +20.

Isn't this one of those archaic classic courses that time has long since passed?  

[Will W]

in 1941 the winning total was 146, and it was 144 this year, so there's been some progress

[Matt_Ward]

If anyone can answer -- what was the total length that PV played? Were the extreme back tees used for both days or changed between rounds?

I would be most interested in knowing the stroke average of the top 25 players because in any regional event a good number of people who play are just simply "in the field" but have little chance of real success. Throwing them into the equation of stroke average will have a tendency to bump up averages. This happens in the Jersey and Met Opens as well as other similar type events.

Can anyone explain the reasons behind the utter difficulty of the 1st and 2nd holes? Must have been nerves because the 1st does have plenty of room off the tee to get to the fairway. Was the pin on #1 placed ALL the way in the rear of the green for both rounds? How narrow was the 2nd fairway?

Any help in answering is appreciated.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

The top 25 players finished between +4 and +14.  

The next 25 finished between +15 and and +24, and included a former touring professional, among quite a few other very highly-regarded regional pros and amateurs.

[Will W]

matt,

don't know about total distance, but the extreme back tees were used for both morning and afternoon rounds on monday.  don't know about tuesday's playoff.

the pin on #1 was back middle, and yes it seemed like the three players i watched (gillespie, palumbo, and hardin) were very hesitant to even go at it.  gillespie and hardin both had trouble off the tee besides.

#2 is pretty narrow for PV.  where my general impression was that fairway landing areas are generous.  what seemed to make #2 difficult was a tricky uphill approach to a back pin position.  the guys i watched had trouble getting the right distance.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Matt,

You can get all kinds of analyses from the link I posted earlier.  Just hit the links in the upper left.

As for the yardage, gapgolf.org has it listed as 6656 in one place and 6699 in another (maybe they moved the tee each day).

[Matt_Ward]

Will W:

From what you observed -- Did the players have trouble more off the tee or were green speeds at a high level causing plenty of three-wacks?

[Mike_Cirba]

Also interesting is that one contestant had 10 solid pars in his second round....and shot 89...+19!

There was little wind either day, as well, with almost perfect conditions.   

[SPDB]

don't you think it is a testament to the strength of pine valley's par 3's, that they all played among the top 9 toughest holes of the tournament. It's even more astounding given that only one of them classifies as a long par 3.

[Will W]

again from the threesome i watched all day, there weren't too many 3-putts, but poor driving and approach shots more than took their toll.  i don't recall too many 1-putts for par from off the green or from bunkers.

as for yardages, not all holes were lengthened, two that i recall, the 3rd and the 5th listed as 181 yds and 232 yds played to 199 yd and 250 yds respectively.  

[JSlonis]

Matt,

We played the course as far back as you could possibly play it.  Also the majority of hole locations were very difficult.  The locations on the first two holes along with nerves probably led to rank of difficulty.  The first hole location was back left, and I think alot of bogeys were made there because of players being too conservative and leaving very long first putts. The hole location on #2 was all the way back in the middle of the green, only 5 paces from the back edge, again a location that was difficult to get to because of the fear of hitting it over the green.

#5 played extremely difficult, the flagstick was back right about 15ft from the back edge, it played about 250 yds.

For the good player Pine Valley is definitely a second shot golf course.  There is ample room off the tee, but the premium is placed on accurate iron play, specially given the tough hole locations.  I drove the ball very well all day, but I made more bogeys than normal because I was too conservative on my approach shots trying to avoid the "disaster areas".

Overall I think the scoring was high for a few reasons...hole locations were difficult, wind was swirling throughout the day, and with 4,000+ spectators roaming around, nerves were a bit on edge.

Scott,

Hole #5 got me good...the hole played as long as it could, the tees were at the back and the flagstick was at the back of the green. I think it played about 250 yards, and the wind was in our face.  There were a couple of players who actually hit driver.  The first round I hit a great 2 iron to the front middle of the green...my reward for hitting the green...a 60 ft putt uphill with about 8 ft of break....3 putt bogey.  The second round, #5 was my 15th hole,  I made the cardinal mistake and hit my tee shot down the hill on the right. I was only 4 over to that point before I made a triple bogey 6.  Needless to say I was a little hot standing on the 6th tee.

All in all it was the most fun tournament day I have played. It was great playing in front of so many people. I loved hearing the ooh's and ahh's for good drives and the applause for good shots and putts. Pine Valley did a wonderful job as the host and the GAP really rolled out the red carpet for the players and spectators.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jamie;

I wrongly assumed that because there was little to no wind in Philly that day, conditions would be similar for you at PV.  

Was it ever strong, or just swirling little gusts?  

[JSlonis]

Mike,

The wind blew quite strong at times, I would guess about 10-15 mph, but with many gusts higher than that. A constant breeze is not that difficult, but when the wind is gusting and dying, and also swirling through the pines it gets much tougher.

For the most part it was about a 1 club wind.

[Fred Ruttenberg]

I spent the day at Pine Valley as a member of GAP's executive committee. There was a pleasant breeze all day. It was stronger in the afternoon but rarely more than a one club wind. I was at holes 16 and 17. I rarely saw a tee shot in trouble. Approach shots were the problem. Pins were in difficult, but not unfair positions. Green speed was probably around 10, fast but not unfair.
As Tom Paul noted,the field was limited by qualifying events to 45 pros and 15 amatuers. There were no weak players in the field.

[Fred Ruttenberg]

I spent the day at Pine Valley as a member of GAP's executive committee. There was a pleasant breeze all day. It was stronger in the afternoon but rarely more than a one club wind. I was at holes 16 and 17. I rarely saw a tee shot in trouble. Approach shots were the problem. Pins were in difficult, but not unfair positions. Green speed was probably around 10, fast but not unfair.
As Tom Paul noted,the field was limited by qualifying events to 45 pros and 15 amateurs. There were no weak players in the field.

[Matt_Ward]

Fred R:

With all due respect -- when two holes are nearly averaging 5 (the 1st at 4.92, the 2nd at 4.88) I have to wonder about your statement, "There were no weak players in the field." Basically, the two holes were playing to a bogey average for a field composed of the best pros and ams in GAP.
  
I saw the 15th at Bethpage Black play to an average of 4.60 in the US Open. Are we saying that the 1st and 2nd holes at PV are more difficult than the 15th at BB?

I chalk it up to nerves more than anything else because the fairway at #1 at PV is as wide as Kansas. I don't doubt the 2nd being an intimidating tee shot but still 4.88!

Kudos to PV for hosting such an event. I just hope PV will do future events of this type beyond its annual Crump Cup.

[Scott_Burroughs]

The players in the U.S. Open are of a different caliber than the Philly Open, and certainly used to playing in front of crowds (much bigger crowds, not to mention TV cameras and huge purses).  That's why they were in the U.S. Open and not the Philly open.

[Matt_Ward]

Scott:

An average of bogey per hole ... Hello! When people are talking about the quality of the field I'm wondering how the numbers can be soooo high for those two respective holes. That's all.

[Michael Dugger]

Sounds to me like PV presented a wonderful challenge to all the competitors.  Like a great course should, PV rewarded those who approached the green from the proper position in the fairway.  If it is an easy driving course, but a difficult approach course, it seems that more care maybe needed to be taken in choosing which part of the fairway the players hit to.  Of course this is easier said then done.  Well done Pine Valley.  If only we could see how the pros handle it!

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

Yes, the first and second holes at PV are tougher than the 15th at Bethpage....

Once you screw up.  

Even with the deep US Open rough and shaved green.  

At Bethpage #15, there were routine 5's, and even 6's, with 3-putts.

At PV 1 & 2, you had 9's, 8's, etc.  

The penalties for screwing up are HARSH, and then you get to find your ball and hit it again.  

[Matt_Ward]

Mike C:

My point is that if top professionals played PV's 1st and 2nd holes the stroke average would not be anywhere near what took place in the GAP Open.

No disrespect to the players or PV but those strokes averages are inflated by inferior play. The stroke average at the 15th at BB was against the world's premier players and they DID NOT play from the extreme back tee at 478 yards. The USGA took it a little easy on them.

Mike, put the same players from the GAP on the 15th at BB and you would see plenty of snowmen and beyond.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

Are you suggesting that the penalty for wayward shots at 15 BB is more penally stringent and difficult to recover from than PV's 1&2??

Have you ever missed PV's first green to either SIDE??  

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