[Matt Varney]

How does the USGA consider GHIN using a 9 hole course?

Can you count 2 separate 9 hole rounds (38,40) on par 36 on different days as an 18 hole score of 78 for par 72?  Does the USGA just count scores entered from 18 hole courses for GHIN?

[John Burzynski]

Two 9 hole scores are automatically combined...at least with the USGA online service that I use.

[John Sheehan]

This is all good feedback and is giving me some confidence to start thinking about a business plan model for a nice links style course that has two sets of tee boxes from different angles allowing it to be played from 3,000 to 3,500 yards with a traditional (2) par 3's, (2) par 5's and (5) par 4's configuration.  I might even add a par 3 100-125 yard 10th hole not 19th hole to close out side bets.

I think this facility also really needs a great practice facility so you can either play or practice during the week after work and maybe do both on the weekends.  What about clubhouse and if some limited residential was part of the plan would it take away from the golf experience? 
 

Matt,
I too have a soft spot in my heart for 9-holers.  I learned to play on what was then a 9-hole course in Northern California.  It has since been expanded to 18 holes.  It had two very different sets of tees for those playing it as an 18 hole round.  That was a nice touch.

Later, up in the Seattle area, a friend of mine belonged to a very nice 9-hole course.  In addition to 2-sets of tees, they also had 2 holes on every green, one with a white flag and one with a red flag (if my memory serves me well).  So the normal setup was play from white-tee to white-flag, then from red-tee to red-flag for your second nine.  That made it even more interesting.

Per your question: I think what both of those clubs lacked was a good practice facility.  That would have been an added incentive.  Both had clubhouses, and I think that did add to the attraction at both courses.

[Craig Van Egmond]

John,

        Was that course in the Seattle area (Bellevue actually) called Tam O'Shanter?  They did the same thing, except on 2 holes they actually had 2 different greens to play to.  They had some very cool greens and it was a fun course.

[Bill_McBride]

This is all good feedback and is giving me some confidence to start thinking about a business plan model for a nice links style course that has two sets of tee boxes from different angles allowing it to be played from 3,000 to 3,500 yards with a traditional (2) par 3's, (2) par 5's and (5) par 4's configuration.  I might even add a par 3 100-125 yard 10th hole not 19th hole to close out side bets.

I think this facility also really needs a great practice facility so you can either play or practice during the week after work and maybe do both on the weekends.  What about clubhouse and if some limited residential was part of the plan would it take away from the golf experience? 
 

Matt,
I too have a soft spot in my heart for 9-holers.  I learned to play on what was then a 9-hole course in Northern California.  It has since been expanded to 18 holes.  It had two very different sets of tees for those playing it as an 18 hole round.  That was a nice touch.

John, Mare Island in Vallejo?

[John Keenan]

I was not aware that Mare Island was 9 holes then expanded to 18. Delta view is a 9 expanded to 18. From their home page "The original nine opened in 1947. The latter nine opened in 1991."

John

[Eric Franzen]

9 holers are great and I frequent several in my area.

However,
You can't hire half a pro/operator.
You can't hire half a super.
Many fixed costs are the same,or only slightly lower.

In busy times you can only create half the revenue of the course.

However, 18 holes, where nine hole rounds could be booked seperately, would solve such a problem.

Jeff, I think this is where Mike Young's owner/operator comes in, the guy who doesn't advertise but keeps costs down and offers a good product at a lower price.  Because of this he has a loyal customer base, who love the late afternoon leagues during the summer.

His wife works behind the counter and his daughter cooks the hot dogs.  He keeps an eye on the small crew that maintains the golf course.  I suspect there are a great number of those out there in the hinterlands who are doing just fine.

Some Swedish clubs, based in the countryside and run on smaller budgets, have been toying with the idea of sharing pro and super and letting them rotate during the week.
Maybe worth looking into.

[John Sheehan]

John,

        Was that course in the Seattle area (Bellevue actually) called Tam O'Shanter?  They did the same thing, except on 2 holes they actually had 2 different greens to play to.  They had some very cool greens and it was a fun course.

Craig, Yes, it was Tam O'Shanter.  I actually lived for a short time right across the street with a friend and his wife.  We'd get home from work, have a bite to eat and still easily get 18 holes in during the summer evenings.  I forgot about the two-green hole.  Thanks for the memory.

John, Mare Island in Vallejo?
[/quote]

Bill, good guess, but it was actually the old nine at Bodega Harbour GL.  I forgot that Mare Island used to be nine holes too.  I never played it then.  Did play quite a few others, like Gleneagles.  Bodega, despite not currently being one of my favorites courses was a great place to learn because you had such extreme weather conditions.  Even with a persimmon driver, you had to learn to hit the low shots, or else....  I once ballooned a driver on the old 4th hole - oh, and by the way, that was my SECOND shot on that par 4.  A friend was up ahead of me and watched as the ball hit the wall of wind, kept moving upward, then upward and BACKWARDS.  When it hit the ground it continued to move backwards, rolling closer and closer to me.  That was a brutal day.  You couldn't hear the person talking to you because it sounded like a jet taking off in each of your ears.   

[Bill_McBride]

I was not aware that Mare Island was 9 holes then expanded to 18. Delta view is a 9 expanded to 18. From their home page "The original nine opened in 1947. The latter nine opened in 1991."

John

Didn't know about Delta View, I was guessing you were talking about Mare Island.

www.mareislandgolfclub.com/history.html

I never played at Mare Island after they expanded to 18, but loved the quirky old 9-holer with two sets of tees.

Until I read the article on Mare Island's history above, I had forgotten about the concrete bunkers scattered around the course.

[Matt Varney]

That is a funny posting about the wind.  I remember one time playing with a bunch of guys in Myrtle Beach at The Legends courses.  The first day we played the Doak Heathland Course and it was like 42 degrees with about 25 mph winds that made it feel like a winter storm. 

I did the exact same thing hammer a drive and watch the wind kill it in the air and drop in the fairway about 150 yards of the tee.  I think we only played 9 holes that day because the weather conditions were so severe.  Great memories makes me think back to those days!

[Tom Huckaby]

Bill - the new 9 at Mare Island puts the q in quirk.  It is pretty darn cool.  I tend to mention this course when hidden gems of the Bay Area are discussed.

As for the general concept, man a 3000+ yard 9 hole course would be GREAT for the consumer - particularly in high golfer to course ratio areas like this.  I just wonder if it could fly financially....

TH

[John Sheehan]

As for the general concept, man a 3000+ yard 9 hole course would be GREAT for the consumer - particularly in high golfer to course ratio areas like this.  I just wonder if it could fly financially....

TH

Tom makes a good point.  I've never understood it myself, but there does seem to be a good portion of the golfing public that that refuses to think of 9-holers as "real" golf.  Consequently, I think you might have a built in segement of the golfing public who won't even consider playing one.  Kind of like a political candidate with built-in negatives.

Gleneagles in the city did a good job of marketing the course as a special place. The regulars were fiercely proud of their course and very protective of it.  It didn't hurt the Erik Delambert (spelling?) was quite a character.  I think the regulars adopted his philosphy and emulated his personality.

[Stan Dodd]

Aliso Creek in Laguna was always a fun afternoon.
My favorite used to be in Kingman Ariz.  Great fun with two sets of tees which really changed the nature of some holes and the greens were always great.   Alas they expanded to 18 and the experience is not the same.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill - the new 9 at Mare Island puts the q in quirk.  It is pretty darn cool.  I tend to mention this course when hidden gems of the Bay Area are discussed.

As for the general concept, man a 3000+ yard 9 hole course would be GREAT for the consumer - particularly in high golfer to course ratio areas like this.  I just wonder if it could fly financially....

TH

Probably only in the mom & pop, low overhead / low maintenance model.

[Tom Huckaby]

Stan - YES YES YES!  I love Aliso Creek - I've now played it three times on two different trips down there.  Very fun for sure.

John:  I absolutely agree that a large segment of golfers won't consider this "real golf", and that could be a problem.  But I got torn a new ass by Kavanaugh once for even suggesting that... so put on the fireproofs in case he sees this.  In any case I also believe that in our time-stressed society, a large portion might also embrace some golf that is almost "real" but won't take 5+ hours.  So perhaps it could balance out in that respect.  My concern was more about the issues already brought up here:  one can't have half a pro, half a clubhouse, half a superintendent... those costs are all full, where your income is half.  But a businessman I am not!

TH

[Bill_McBride]

The other missing element in California is the absence - so far as I know - of summer 9 hole leagues, which are so popular in the Midwest.  There are more golfers late in the day on a summer after work than during the day at many courses.    I don't remember anything like that in California, although it may have changed.

[Richard Boult]

Golf Today Magazine just published an article about a new 12-hole course - The Challenge - opening this year next to Monarch Dunes near San Luis Obispo, both designed by Damian Pascuzzo and Steve Pate.  Pretty impressive from what I've seen so far. Can't wait to play it!

"The 12-hole course will be fabulous," beamed Matt Kalbak, general manager and chief of golf operations. "I mean, really something. There are two different sets of tees, kind of a pick your poison. It will appeal to the so-called novice golfer, as well as the more skilled. And you can play it in under two hours."

Kalbak said The Challenge as a par 36 is not exactly a smallish copy of the neighboring 6,800-yeard Monarch course that plays to a par 71. "The original plan was for it to be an executive-type nine-hole course, with seven par 3's and two par 4's," he said. "Then it was decided, no, let's go for 12 holes with quality greens. Like Monarch Dunes, which we now call the Old Course, the fairways are fescue and the greens velvet bent grass.

The Old Course is mostly a Scottish links style calling for a lot of bump and run approaches to the greens. "But The Challenge has larger greens, averaging 8,000 square feet," Kalbak said. "They will be mowed higher because of slopes even more severe than on the Old Course. With the huge greens, there are a lot more spots for the flagsticks. And there will be some Scottish features, Redan style(a la the famous North Berwick track in Scotland) on the shorter holes, and some repelling features on the tougher holes."

Golf Today May 2008 Article

Damian Pascuzzo Overview

[Tom Huckaby]

The other missing element in California is the absence - so far as I know - of summer 9 hole leagues, which are so popular in the Midwest.  There are more golfers late in the day on a summer after work than during the day at many courses.    I don't remember anything like that in California, although it may have changed.

Such things most definitely exist - a friend of mine plays in one at Crystal Springs, which is an 18 hole course but runs 9 hole late afternoon leagues.  I have to believe there are others.  I also have to believe that a great 9 hole course could fill their sheets no problem with leagues such as this once the course became known.

No, filling the sheet won't be the issue - not here.  Hell all of our many awful 18 holers are routinely packed day after day.  A high quality 9 holer would get a LOT of play for sure.

The question remains could the course collect enough revenue to outweigh the costs.  High price of land here makes that even MORE problematic, doesn't it?

People will NOT pay top dollar for a 9 hole course... so how does one solve this?

TH

ps - Art -that sounds really cool!

[Craig Van Egmond]

John S,

          I played Tam O'Shanter a couple of dozen times, what a unique, fun and challenging course.  Those Seattle summers are great for getting 18/27 holes in after work.

Here is the google earth view....  http://www.golfflyover.com/Default.aspx?id=3f7de1ef-210f-4a3a-9cc6-129cbe557762

The sixth hole had the dual green, made the hole play quite differently.

[John Sheehan]

John:  I absolutely agree that a large segment of golfers won't consider this "real golf", and that could be a problem.  But I got torn a new ass by Kavanaugh once for even suggesting that... so put on the fireproofs in case he sees this.  In any case I also believe that in our time-stressed society, a large portion might also embrace some golf that is almost "real" but won't take 5+ hours.  So perhaps it could balance out in that respect.  My concern was more about the issues already brought up here:  one can't have half a pro, half a clubhouse, half a superintendent... those costs are all full, where your income is half.  But a businessman I am not!

TH

Probably only in the mom & pop, low overhead / low maintenance model.
[/quote]

Tom, thanks for the warning: my wife is a volunteer fireperson - so I will borrow her turnouts and prepare for battle.    My evidence, although anecdotal, is that I have a very difficult time getting any of my buddies to go out to a nine hole course.  Even in casual conversation with other golfers, the first reaction to any nine hole course is studied indifference.  Since I share an affection for nine-holers, my observations are more cautionary in nature to anyone thinking of trying to make a business of one.  I think if marketed correctly, they can be profitable.  

And Bill McBride makes a valid point about the operational side.  

[John Keenan]

I think Tom H and others have hit on an issue with 9 hole courses as not being real golf. Dublin Ranch (18 Holes) in the East Bay suffers due to lack of length. It is a great course well maintained but many I know wrinkle their brow at it due to its length. None of them shoot anywhere near par but none the less they want the challenge of a long course.

Gleneagles is unique in many ways and not sure if one could replicate it. I enjoy it though it is a bit tough for my game.

John

[Tom Huckaby]

John S. - oh I fully agree this perception exists and could well be a problem.  The cost issues are a real as well.  Thus in the end I really wonder if such a course could work here....

I would love it if it existed, however!  If I lived closer to SF I'd play Gleneagles a lot.  I used to play Cypress in Colma all the time when I lived in San Bruno.  I love 9 hole courses, primarily for the time factor.  And unfortunately the only 9holers near me are par threes and executive courses.  Thus as a consumer I am all in favor of a 3000+ yard version somewhere near the South Bay... I am just not holding my breath for such to be built.

John K - I think Dublin Ranch is a hell of a great course and again if I lived closer I would play it a lot.  But I think the attitude of John S.'s friends is pretty wide-spread, and would extend to 18 hole executive courses like that as well.  I just wonder if a 9 hole par 36 would at least assuage them somewhat... but hell, in the end the cost issues likely trump all so it's all just theoretical here.

TH

[Matt Varney]

So based on what I am hearing - if the 9 hole course it to be any good it has to have a great design and be very challenging.  If you made it a true par 36 at 3,600 yards it would test even the pros from the back tees with length, bunkering and smaller green complexes.

[Tom Huckaby]

So based on what I am hearing - if the 9 hole course it to be any good it has to have a great design and be very challenging.  If you made it a true par 36 at 3,600 yards it would test even the pros from the back tees with length, bunkering and smaller green complexes.

Oh I don't think the CHALLENGE of it need be the over-riding issue.  Yes it would help if you had some crazy back tees to please those for whom the test is what it's all about.  But they are the minority, I think... More important will be a decent length course that is INTERESTING and FUN.

Build that and the sheet will be filled.

TH

[David Stamm]

Stan - YES YES YES!  I love Aliso Creek - I've now played it three times on two different trips down there.  Very fun for sure.

 

I second (or third) this. Aliso is very fun. I've stopped by and played it after working in Orange on the way home and it's a neat place to play. Nothing wrong with a quick 9. Better than nothing at all. Eckenrode did a good job of transforming some of the holes there. I think more of these could work. What's the difference when someone who belongs to a club stops by and plays 5 or 6 holes. If the qulaity is good and the price is right, it would work IMHO. How many would stop and play the back nine at Pacific Grove if that's all they had time for?

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