[Matt Varney]

Guys,

I was reading this thread about free lessons and people quiting the game because of time, money and equipment costs.  For some time now I have been thinking about the idea of a really nice 9 hole course like Mike Keiser's private The Dunes Club.

I am going to ask you all in this GCA discussion forum - With costs rising for everything and everyone is so busy with very little free time balancing work and family, Would you all play a really good 9 hole links course so that you get a couple hours of great golf and then you have time for all the other thngs in life?


 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Absolutely!
There is nothing like it in the Houston market.

And as an aside.
I think someone even wrote a book about such a thing...

[Matt Varney]

Mike,

That is exactly what I keep thinking you need a smaller piece of land and it could possibly even have some residential development around the perimeter of the course routing to offset costs.  All I know is that it is real easy for me to cut away from the office early and play 9 holes during the week than spending 5 hours on Saturday to Sunday playing.

I love my wife and kids but the little white ball gets in your head and starts calling your name.  You just have to head to the course and play to get it out of your system.  I live in Knoxville, TN and we don't have a really good 9 hole course that would play par 36 / 3,600 yards with a really nice design style like Links or Parkland.

[David Stamm]

IMHO, I think the future of the game, in part, is dependent on this. I may be overstating this, but I think Matt's points are what the game has been facing for a few years now (post Tiger effect) and it's vital for it to keep it's core and make the game attractive to new comers. The length it takes is a big turn off for alot of people. The 9 holer is a viable solution. If the qulaity was good, I would have no problem if I could only play "1/2" a round.

[Eric Smith]

Matt:

There is a really nice 9 holer right there in Knoxville, well Seymour actually, called Creekside Plantation.  It delivers on a daily basis so much of what public golf needs IMO.  I managed this course for three years for the two owners;  A couple of great guys who are passionate about the game and knew how to design, build and maintain a quality golf course for much less than most anyone would be willing to believe.  

What I saw on a daily basis was exactly what you describe in your post, people enjoying great golf, playing 9 holes, while still having enough time left in the their day to do other things.

I'll meet you up there anytime if you want to play it.  It used to be $10 to walk 9.

[Matt Varney]

David,

Now I am starting to get some feedback so I am feeling more and more that this is not a crazy idea that has been building inside my head.  Now if this really nice designed 9 hole course also had a first class practice facility so you could maybe hit balls in the evening and work on your short game would it be even better?

[Matt Varney]

Eric,

You got a deal send me an e-mail sometime and let me know when you want to play?  I want to scout Creekside Plantation I thought it started as 9 holes and they were adding another 9 holes to be an 18 hole facility. 

I am wondering how many people would support a 9 hole course long term as loyal patrons that were proud to call it their home course.  I think if the design is good and the course has got some really nice holes the opportunity to play in a couple hours just works.  Everyone is busy and soon we are going to have two types of golfers: people working everyday of the week that can get just enough time to play a couple rounds a month and the flipside is the retired baby boomers that will have saved enough money to play a ton anc catch up for all the rounds they missed working for 40 years.

[Eric Smith]

David,

Now I am starting to get some feedback so I am feeling more and more that this is not a crazy idea that has been building inside my head.  Now if this really nice designed 9 hole course also had a first class practice facility so you could maybe hit balls in the evening and work on your short game would it be even better?

I might add, they had 75 acres more or less.  Built 45 townhomes down the left side of 6th and 7th. Sold them out in less than 3 yrs and definitely got back their construction and land costs.  One of the two bought out the other recently and now the owner's son is running the show while going through the PGM program of the PGA.

And the practice facility is perfect.

[Eric Smith]

Eric,

You got a deal send me an e-mail sometime and let me know when you want to play?  I want to scout Creekside Plantation I thought it started as 9 holes and they were adding another 9 holes to be an 18 hole facility. 

I am wondering how many people would support a 9 hole course long term as loyal patrons that were proud to call it their home course.  I think if the design is good and the course has got some really nice holes the opportunity to play in a couple hours just works.  Everyone is busy and soon we are going to have two types of golfers: people working everyday of the week that can get just enough time to play a couple rounds a month and the flipside is the retired baby boomers that will have saved enough money to play a ton anc catch up for all the rounds they missed working for 40 years.

Matt:

Sent you an IM. 

Yes, the possibility of an additional 9 was always discussed, but they didn't own much more of the surrounding land.  And what's available is mostly pretty severe as the golf course rests at the base of a steep hillside. 

Now with just the one owner and seeing that it's working as is, I don't see Mr. Fannon rushing to purchase more land anytime soon.  But if he was thinking about it, he wouldn't be talking about it.  Not until it was signed, sealed and delivered.

[Paul Saathoff]

What about an 18 hole course with three returning 6 hole courses?  I've heard this idea thrown around a bit and always wondered how it would be perceived.  It would give you three options based on your time constraints. 

[Robert_Ball]

Matt,

Two things have struck me as odd recently here in SoCal: "Championship" courses being squeezed onto land that is either too severe or too small for 18 holes but would be fine for 9 holes, and 27 hole complexes that do nothing to market the fact that you can play a quick nine there.  Instead they seem more intent on using the additional nine to space players out.

It would be interesting to know how the ratio of 9-to-18 hole courses has trended over the past few years.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Matt

9 Hole courses are great and fun, as you would have read from my past post, I love them. Many of the early clubs started with 9 holes and some are still around. I can’t speak for the USA but the UK has some great courses and a few still retain most of their original designer’s course more or less intact .i.e.Warkworth in Northumberland & Bridge of Allan.

[jeffwarne]

9 holers are great and I frequent several in my area.

However,
You can't hire half a pro/operator.
You can't hire half a super.
Many fixed costs are the same,or only slightly lower.

In busy times you can only create half the revenue of the course.

However, 18 holes, where nine hole rounds could be booked seperately, would solve such a problem.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Put me down as a serious fan of 9 hole golf courses. I really learned the game on a 9 hole course. It was nothing special architecturally, it was laid out in a former cow pasture and had no bunkers, but it had cool greens and was great fun.  The ruined it by squeezing in 9 more holes on a property that wasn't big enough for 18 holes.

Oklahoma seems to have a lot of 9 hole courses, in fact the first and oldest course in a 9 holer in Guthrie laid out by Alex Findlay.  We have a 9 hole par 3 course here that has lights at night for play during the hot summers.  I go there when I need to work on my irons.

If there was a good 9 hole golf course here, I would definitely play it regularly.

[John Keenan]

I am a fan of 9 hole courses as well but I am not sure at lest in the US if they are treated as "real " golf courses by all golfers. Here in Northern California we have Gleneagles and Fleming both very nice courses to play with I feel Gleneagle being the better of the two.  The Olympic club has a great 9 hole course The Cliffs and I would be curious to see how much play it gets. I suspect far far less than either Lake or Ocean.

I played the Cliffs after attending  The Pacific Coast AM at Olympic and was surprised to see many of the participants and their friends and families out catching a quick 9 after the finals.

9 hole courses are real courses and can give a great outing in a short time frame.

As to a book on the topic a shameless plug for GCA own Anthony Pioppi book To the Nines. Highly recommended.

John

[Jon Spaulding]

I would prefer 9 good holes to a weak 18-hole experience - anyday. Surprised that so few have been built in the last, say, 20 years out west. Also surprised that alternate set of tees to make up a rateable 18-hole does not come up more often.

As mentioned by Keenan, Gleneagles and the Cliffs are both great. the former has some alternate tees which makes for some very interesting golf.

[Bill_McBride]

What about an 18 hole course with three returning 6 hole courses?  I've heard this idea thrown around a bit and always wondered how it would be perceived.  It would give you three options based on your time constraints. 

Cuscowilla is a great example of that concept.  #6, #9, #14 and #18 all return to the clubhouse, creating loops of 6, 3, 5 and 4 holes.  Little short loops are always an option late in the afternoon.

[Sean Leary]

My home course, Aldarra, come back near the clubhouse after 2,9, 14 and 18. Also, you can play 9, 10, 13, and 14, so it gives a number of opions for 2, 4 and 6 hole loops...

[Mark_Rowlinson]

We're lucky to have a number of better-than-average 9-hole courses within ten miles of my house. I should readily play Alderley Edge, Knutsford, Cheadle, Hale, Congleton, Gatley and others were it possible to pay a 9-hole green fee. But they're all private clubs which charge an 18-hole green fee which is more or less the same as the going rate for an 18-hole course - £40-50 ($80-100). Fortunately, Wilmslow, where I am a member, is easily played as loops of anything from 2-9 holes, such is the luck of the routing, so I can play as many or as few holes as I like without a problem In fact, you've just reminded me that i meant to play a few holes this evening, but I got side-tracked by GCA.

What we do have, however, is a pretty decent pay-and-play 9-hole par-three course at Adlington, designed by Hawtree with holes ranging from 120 yards to 240 yards. It suits my wife and me ideally as you can get round in about an hour, the green fee was (last year) still under £10 ($20) and the condition of the course is considerably better than any other pay-and-play in the vicinity. You can't go on it if you are a complete novice - they have an excellent Hawtree-designed pitch-and-putt [longest hole 85 yards, shrtest 45 yards] for that purpose - so it's not hacked about and you don't get held up behind four children with a single club and a putter between them. I think it's a good model for others to follow.

[Carl Rogers]

For the youngster, those learning, those with modest resources and those less than die hard golfers, isn't this the only business model that makes any sense at all?

Yes, from a facility management perspective, individuals that work there will have wear more than 1 hat.

I do not know how to make the game less hard.

[Jason Hines]

Hi Matt,

Nebraska has several as well, many packed with character and community pride.  Places such as Fairbury, which has some wicked tee shots.  Milford, with solid conditions as well as some quirks in the layout because of the terrain.  Friend, which has had a long standing reputation for community pride, decent high school golf and beer.  I am sure the other Nebrasaka kids on this site can chime in as well.

Here in KC, there is Falcon Valley which is unique in that it is a 9 hole layout built in the last 10 years.  Granted, it is in a housing development and appears to have all the traits this website despises.   The appealing thing for someone like me that travels for work, 1 and 3 year old boys, is that the time and effort for 9 seems a little easier on the home life.


http://www.ci.friend.ne.us/tourism.htm
http://www.falconvalleygolf.com
http://www.saraspace.com/fcc/index.html

[John Burzynski]

Count me in as a fan of 9 hole courses, short and long.

We have a couple of them around here, anything from a par 29 1900+ yard course to 'regulation length' 3000+ yard 9 hole courses. 

The nice thing about a nine hole course is that you can play a quick nine or go round twice for 18, it is your choice, and if a separate set of tees is provided for the 'back nine', the experience is even richer.  Best of both worlds, you can play as long or short as you want, and the cost for 9 is less than for a full 18 elsewhere.

Nine hole courses could be the future of the game if golfers would get that thought out of their mind that they are being 'cheated' if they play anything less than 18 holes in a round.

[Alan Gard]

I grew up playing the Friend CC, which Jason mentions.  There's definitely a strong community pride around it, with several members of the community contributing time and effort to maintain and improve the course.  The conditioning of the greens was always what set the course apart for me, particularly from some of the other tracks (9 and 18-hole) I played in Nebraska.

As with most everything these days, maintaining and growing the game of golf is dependent upon offering a diversity of experiences so that the most people can fit it into their schedules.  9-hole courses work very well in the rural communities; however, the economies of scale make them less practical in areas where land and labor are more expensive.  Executive courses are another similar venture.  On those, one can get in 18 holes in a reasonable amount of time, and they are great for those learning the game or even for seniors who no longer hit the ball as far.  Again, the economics (charge less for rounds, fewer cart fees, etc.) make these a challenge.

We are now in an on-demand world, and for golf to thrive it needs to meet those challenges.  9-hole courses, 6-hole loops, executive courses, etc. can all help meet that need.  Perhaps there will be some innovative business models that will find a way to meet this need for flexibility profitably. 

[Bill_McBride]

9 holers are great and I frequent several in my area.

However,
You can't hire half a pro/operator.
You can't hire half a super.
Many fixed costs are the same,or only slightly lower.

In busy times you can only create half the revenue of the course.

However, 18 holes, where nine hole rounds could be booked seperately, would solve such a problem.

Jeff, I think this is where Mike Young's owner/operator comes in, the guy who doesn't advertise but keeps costs down and offers a good product at a lower price.  Because of this he has a loyal customer base, who love the late afternoon leagues during the summer.

His wife works behind the counter and his daughter cooks the hot dogs.  He keeps an eye on the small crew that maintains the golf course.  I suspect there are a great number of those out there in the hinterlands who are doing just fine.

[Matt Varney]

This is all good feedback and is giving me some confidence to start thinking about a business plan model for a nice links style course that has two sets of tee boxes from different angles allowing it to be played from 3,000 to 3,500 yards with a traditional (2) par 3's, (2) par 5's and (5) par 4's configuration.  I might even add a par 3 100-125 yard 10th hole not 19th hole to close out side bets.

I think this facility also really needs a great practice facility so you can either play or practice during the week after work and maybe do both on the weekends.  What about clubhouse and if some limited residential was part of the plan would it take away from the golf experience? 

 

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