[John_Conley]

Matt, you seem to want others to say Interlachen is the most overrated course on the GD Top 100.  It seems like Patrick and I, two people that know every blade of grass on the grounds, are in complete agreement. 

Sorry, in re-reading this I see my point is unclear.  Shef, DK, and Shel are the ones from Minnesota that write good, I am the one that don't.

It should read that Patrick and I agree with most of your points about Interlachen.  It reads as though we are in complete agreement with your implied stance that it is the most overrated of all Top 100s.

The moral of this story is that expectations have a lot to do with our impressions.  Many here are ga-ga over Mountain Lake, but the course is inferior to Somerset and holds no candle to Interlachen.  Nobody had heard of the place 10-15 years ago and it is a real treat to get inside those gates, but somehow folks have elevated the course.  Very good, but certainly not world-class.

Champions Gate opened with an in-season 'rack rate' of $170.  It was less than a year before they were asking $45 during summer.  How good is the course?  The responses you heard varied widely, mainly a result of the expectation formed by cost.

[Jason Topp]

I just don't see the design elements of Interlachen worthy of national acclaim. The course can handle the ladies and amateurs but frankly would be chop liver for the top men players. It's the old story that a course may be worthy of fanfare for the specific state it's in but when you expand the box to include the USA as a whole it's an entirely different matter -- at least for me it is.

Matt:

Interesting positions you raise.  It is certainly a reasonable viewpoint that a course should be of sufficient length to require top players to hit driver off the tee and a variety of approach clubs in order to be rated highly.  Following your logic, however would result in many courses being eliminated from top tier status.

Interlachen is a 6829 yard par 73.

I would think under your criteria the following courses were wrongly awarded Doak 10's:

Cypress Point - 6,509 yards
NGLA - 6,876 (par 73)
Crystal Downs - 6,518


And the following are overrated:

Seminole 6,836 - par 73
Fisher's Island - 6,566
Chicago - 6707
LACC North 6900
San Francisco - 6808
Valley Club 6612
Newport
Maidstone 6403
etc. . . .

[Phil McDade]

Jason:

You beat me to the punch; I'd throw in Prairie Dunes, widely viewed as one of the 50 (if not top 25) courses in the country, that probably wouldn't hold up to the men's Tour (and even yielded a 62 to Loren Roberts in the sr. men's Open recently), but held up well for the women at their Open.

[Matt_Ward]

John C:

Let me take your points one at a time.

The word "great" is thrown about too loosely in all elements tied to sport and most notably golf courses.

Keep in mind that the total number and sheer diversity of courses played by a respective individual and the portfolio contained within that total can make for a totally different perspective for one person than another. I've played Interlachen on two different occasions -- the most recent being roughly a decade or so ago.

I don't see the course as a great golf course when stacked up against the totality of other courses I have personally played in the USA. To be great one would have to be at minimum an 8 on the Doak scale.

On the flip side please keep this in mind my benchmark for greatness is quite high given the range and depth of courses I have played in the States. That doesn't mean Interlachen is some sort of dogtrack. Quite the contrary, it's very good in spots but for me it doesn't extract an urge to say it has compelling architecture of the highest order.

No doubt Interlachen should stand high in Minnesota. However, as I stated before when you move beyond the state level and throw yourself into the national heap of top tier courses that's where you find a different story -- for me at least.

John, I don't see Interlachen as being deficient simply in the "resistance to scoring" category. I don't see the sheer range and complexity of holes to be anything more than good to very good. 

One other thing -- even if tradition were dropped from consideration you fail to acknowledge the sheer explosion of top tier courses that have come onto the scene in the last 25 years. Many of them are simply awesome layouts but don't have the wherewithal / desire to host USGA events or tournaments of that nature. The problem is that too many people, possibly you as well, hold dear what clubs have done in the past. Interlachen, as Doak quite correctly summarized, is no more than a 6 on his scale. It's a fine layout in a number of ways but I don't see the course sniffing my top 200 in America.

Jason:

Nice try but it doesn't fly with the likes of the courses you mentioned.

There is no connection between Interlachen and the likes of CP, NGLA and CD. They have the goods to merit their high placement for me.  Not even apples and oranges.

Jason, I see clearly where you are going. It's the old, "Ward only favors 7,500 yard / 140+ slope courses" type thing. That's rubbish. I have supported plenty of courses where the total length is not present. But, keep this FIRMLY in mind, for a layout of minimal length to be rated that highly in the USA the overall design must truly be unique and of the highest order. When you give away 500 or more total yards it can become quite demanding for the shorter course to maintain interest and diversity of holes. It doesn't mean it can't happen but it proves to be a more challenging thing for the design team.

You also mentioned ...

Seminole 6,836 - par 73
Fisher's Island - 6,566
Chicago - 6707
LACC North 6900
San Francisco - 6808
Valley Club 6612
Newport
Maidstone 6403

The only courses from above that would not claim a top 100 spot from the ones I have played would be Maidstone, Valley Club and Newport. Each are fine layouts but not as solid as the others.

Let me point out -- I will start another thread in more detail -- the nature of a Banks Course in NJ that I believe is worthy of state and even national acclaim -- Forsgate / Banks Course in Jamesburg, NJ. The layout is barely 6,800 yards but its loaded with plenty of architectural goodies for any golf design junkie to overdose on.

Patrick H:

I hear what you say on changing weak par-5's intostrong par-4's. However, I am adverse to doing such a thing because the original intent of the architect was to have such holes play as such -- especially in the greens designs and the type of shots they originally were meant to entertain.

But, even if you did change the lengths of the holes in the manner you outlined I don't see the course being better architecturally for it. Would it play tougher? No doubt -- because overall par has been reduced.

Mark C:

Can't answer because I have not played White Yacht or Somerset thus far.

[Jason Topp]

Jason:

Nice try but it doesn't fly with the likes of the courses you mentioned.

There is no connection between Interlachen and the likes of CP, NGLA and CD. They have the goods to merit their high placement for me.  Not even apples and oranges.

Jason, I see clearly where you are going. It's the old, "Ward only favors 7,500 yard / 140+ slope courses" type thing. That's rubbish. I have supported plenty of courses where the total length is not present. But, keep this FIRMLY in mind, for a layout of minimal length to be rated that highly in the USA the overall design must truly be unique and of the highest order. When you give away 500 or more total yards it can become quite demanding for the shorter course to maintain interest and diversity of holes. It doesn't mean it can't happen but it proves to be a more challenging thing for the design team.

Matt:

I did not say Interlachen belongs in the same category as CP, NGLA and CD. (in fact, I do not consider Interlachen the best in the twin cities)   

I do say that CP, NGLA and CD are short, but rated as the very best in the world. 

I do not see how a course with such a fundamental shortcoming (if it is a relevant criteria) can be considered elite.

Do you disagree with that view?  If so, explain how a course that is deficient with respect to length can be top 10 in the US.

[Greg Krueger]

Interlachen has been in the Top 100 rankings as long as I can remember, must be something to it.

[Rick Shefchik]

Greg,

Those rankers just haven't been to enough courses yet.

[Matt_Ward]

Rick / Greg, et al of the same mindset:

I guess Doak's got it wrong too -- no 6 course on his scale would sniff a top 100 placement.

Jason:

Let me explain it this way - I see courses similar to boxers. There are some courses that are especially good for their element (weight category). However, when you raise that type of course and stack them up against courses with added length (higher weight category) it takes a very special shorter course to maintain its overall greatness given the sheer deficiency in length. I didn't say it can't happen because clearly there are a number of certain examples in which that happens.

Interlachen is not one of them in my mind.

In fact, if you ever have the time I'd recommend you play the Banks Course at Forsgate in Monroe Twsp, NJ. The total length is barely 6,800 yards but the sheer design details encountered proves the point that tradition and holding major events can often be over played as a practical matter when seeing what courses are truly great from the more critical design perspective.

[Jason Topp]

Rick / Greg, et al of the same mindset:

I guess Doak's got it wrong too -- no 6 course on his scale would sniff a top 100 placement.

Jason:

Let me explain it this way - I see courses similar to boxers. There are some courses that are especially good for their element (weight category). However, when you raise that type of course and stack them up against courses with added length (higher weight category) it takes a very special shorter course to maintain its overall greatness given the sheer deficiency in length. I didn't say it can't happen because clearly there are a number of certain examples in which that happens.

Matt:   Do CP, CD and NGLA belong in the top 10 of the US?

[Dan Kelly]

I still want to know if Tom Doak thinks maybe Interlachen, without its history, might have merited a 7.

[John_Conley]

Keep in mind that Confidential Guide ratings are often the result of a quick view.  Given that many of The Old Courses' biggest fans acknowledge that they didn't 'get it' after one round, I think we'll all admit that one view may not be enough to understand everything about a course.

Ward and Doak consider Interlachen less than a 7 or Top 100.  Like Krueger says, enough disagree.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan K:

You might as well ask would Pebble get a certain Doak number if there was no ocean present ?

Unfortunately, too many of the classic clubs rely upon their tradition side to carry the day against courses of modern vintage. Some no doubt are fully capable of doing that -- but the emphasis on the word "some" is indeed a limited grouping.

John C:

C'mon, now we are attempting to squeeze in something that Doak didn't apply to all the other courses he rated. I don't doubt a second look may increase the attention from a positive vantage point. It may also lessen the number too.

One further thing -- people have to size up their collective portfolio before slapping the designation of "great" to a number of courses. I don't doubt the course may be "great" to those with a limited personal sampling of courses. Keep in mind which many seem to downplay -- that being the best in a given state -- even as good as Minnesota is -- doesn't necessarily translate out to national honors when you throw the entire USA into the picture. Also, as I said previously, the state of the new courses which have come onto the scene in the last 25 years is also minimized by a good number of people on this site and that is because many of them have not hosted nor will ever host a USGA Championship or its comparable side among professional golf venues.

Jason:

I would place CP in my personal top ten.

I would place CD and NGLA somewhat lower than that but still among the very elite courses I have played in the USA. That would translate out to courses rated somewhere between 11-25.

Don't know what your point is but there are other "short" courses that I would include among my personal best layouts. Venture down to Jamesburg, NJ and play the Banks Course at Forsgate to personally encounter one of the best unknown courses I have played and one which flies well below the national radar outside of the immediate 75 mile radius of the area.

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