[Dan Kelly]

Dan, there are just too many short approach shots for a strong player during the first 12 holes.  It gets pretty tough at the end.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "strong player."

#1 is generally played with a second to the 100 yard area, leaving a wedge.

I'd think the truly strong player, and many merely strong players, would be going for the green in two. John Harris did in the 93 Walker Cup, and made eagle.

Unless the tee is back on #2 it is pretty easy to drive over the hill and have a PW or SW.  As you get back the trees on the box are in play and you actually are incented to layup shorter and have 150ish in. 

The approach may be short -- but it's to an EXTREMELY tilted (back down to front) green that's EXTREMELY narrow to the angle of approach. Miss it left, right or long, and you will have a helluva time getting up and down. I wonder, in fact, if the USGA will have problems with this green, a la Olympic 18 at the 98 Open. If the wind blows, and the Stimp is up...

#4 is also about 90 yards in.

Again: Won't the strongest players be going for the green in 2, after strong drives?

#6 and #7 leave approaches under 125.

No. 6 green is pretty severely elevated, and tilted, and if you miss it left, you have a nasty downhill bunker shot, and if you miss it right, you're in a bunker about 20 feet below green level.

#9 is just a pitch for the third, if not a putter.

No. 9? No. 9 is surely a go-zone for the strong player -- isn't it? Hell, Bobby Jones got there in two, off a lily pad -- right?

In 1993 Todd Demsey waited for the green to clear before hitting his drive on #10.  A solid drive leaves just 100.

The strongest players 15 years later must be as strong as Todd Demsey was in 1993. Right? So 10 has perhaps become a temptation hole? And it's a little green with severe falloffs all around. Right? If these short approaches were to big bowl greens, I'd understand your criticism -- but they're not! They're elevated dinner plates!

#11 has been made into a par 4 to combat the shortness.

And a great par-4, right?

#12, for all the challenge, is still a sub-550 par 5 that gives strong players another Wedge.

Again, for the third time, I'd think the strongest players would certainly have the option of going for the green in two.

Can a great course be this short?  Yes, but don't be surprised if something else is more acclaimed.

I repeat - this is a PERFECT course for the girls.  They aren't going to find it this short.

I think it's a perfectly wonderful course for all sorts of players. Maybe not for the independent contractors of the PGA Tour -- but that's no problem for anyone else.

[mark chalfant]

Thanks for all the great replies

I haven't played  Somerset.  If possble describe number 10 and 11 there. By the way, are green complexes at Somerset well preserved ?

thanks

[John_Conley]

Dan, yes, super-long players 15 years ago could reach the other par 5s.  There weren't many members going for any of these regularly, and the course has seldom seen top amateur play.

I don't consider #11 a great par 4, or even a good one.  The shape of the fairway doesn't fit.  Take out a few trees at the corner and it would be a lot different. 

I'm a huge Interlachen fan, but it isn't a stout test that demands lots of precise ballstriking to those elevated greens you mention.  Short approaches.  Play #7 from the 10th tee and it becomes a different story.  Unlike Somerset, Interlachen has a very hard time pulling back tees on the short five - 2, 6, 7, 10, and 16.  No room, no room, would share 10th tee, only if you go on top of the clubhouse, and no room.

Mine is an attempt to answer Ward's post.  I don't wish to pick nits over the course's merits.  Wasn't his comment about it not being worthy of the ranking mainly because it wasn't as resistant to scoring as other courses?

[John_Conley]

Thanks for all the great replies

I haven't played  Somerset.  If possble describe number 10 and 11 there. By the way, are green complexes at Somerset well preserved ?

thanks

Mark, #10 is a par 4 that doglegs nearly 90 degrees.  Ideally it is probably played with a 3w-5i shot sequence and measures probably 400 with the second shot playing uphill a bit.  Trees on the right make it hard to get a line cutting it off to the right.  Aggravating mainly.

#11 starts in a corner of the property and plays downhill to a progressively tightening fairway.  It bends gently right, with the second shot very slightly uphill.

#12 is a very good Biarritz hole.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

#11 is back to a par-5 fyi. One year experiment that the membership hated. They built a forward tee 20 yards up and left offering a better angle and making it a very good 450 yard par-4 uphill but they never used it. As is its a so-so par-5 as they took out greenside bunkers that they didn't put back. It won't be too easy for the ladies though as that green is brutal at tough speeds and tourney pins.

[Rick Shefchik]

John, I think you're slightly mis-remembering Somerset #10 (at least its physical characteristics; the part about hating it, I'm sure you remember correctly.)

I don't consider the dogleg to be anywhere near 90 degrees. For those who haven't played it, it's an uphill hole that turns to the right off the tee, with a fairway that's banked left to right, trees lining the higher left side and a creek that runs up the right side. You're facing the fairway at an angle off the tee, but it's not that severe; you have to decide what line you want to take on your tee shot, risking hitting it through the fairway and into the trees on the left if you're too conservative, or catching the rough or creek on the right if you're too aggressive. It's not a true cape hole, but given that the course is a Raynor, I think he intentionally built some cape characteristics into it.

The second shot is uphill to fairly severe green, sloping back to front. A real good test to start your back nine.

[Jeff Shelman]

After all the back and forth, I figure I'll jump in here.

In terms of flipping the 9s, my understanding is that it is part crowd management and part space. There's simply a lot more room behind/around 9 for grandstands and a spot to sign cards and the like. It's much tighter around 18. The LPGA folks also liked a par 5 as a match play closer for the Solheim Cup.

I go back and forth on where I think Interlachen ranks in Twin Cities golf. I like it and think that it is very good. That said, there are flaws as well. There are a lot of wedges and 9 irons out there on the front 9. And then there are a couple of holes I just don't really like. 16 doesn't do a lot for me and my least favorite hole on the course is probably 18. I don't like the blind tee shot and I don't like the severity of the green.

My Twin Cities top five probably includes Hazeltine, Windsong Farm, Minikahda, Interlachen and either Golden Valley or Oak Ridge. I haven't played WBYC and before anyone asks Somerset is in the next five.

All of that said, I think it will be a good venue for the women. They're going to play it at about 6,700 yards and I'm guessing the greens will be hard and fast and the rough long.

[Jason Topp]

To be more specific, I don't think there's a hole at Interlachen I like as much as #4, #9, #10, #11 or #16 at Somerset.

10 at Somerset?!  I hate that thing!

You might like it better now John.  The tee has been moved down towards 12 green reducing the angle of the dogleg.  The hole is a bit longer and I think much better.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

After all the back and forth, I figure I'll jump in here.

In terms of flipping the 9s, my understanding is that it is part crowd management and part space. There's simply a lot more room behind/around 9 for grandstands and a spot to sign cards and the like. It's much tighter around 18. The LPGA folks also liked a par 5 as a match play closer for the Solheim Cup.

I go back and forth on where I think Interlachen ranks in Twin Cities golf. I like it and think that it is very good. That said, there are flaws as well. There are a lot of wedges and 9 irons out there on the front 9. And then there are a couple of holes I just don't really like. 16 doesn't do a lot for me and my least favorite hole on the course is probably 18. I don't like the blind tee shot and I don't like the severity of the green.

My Twin Cities top five probably includes Hazeltine, Windsong Farm, Minikahda, Interlachen and either Golden Valley or Oak Ridge. I haven't played WBYC and before anyone asks Somerset is in the next five.

All of that said, I think it will be a good venue for the women. They're going to play it at about 6,700 yards and I'm guessing the greens will be hard and fast and the rough long.

Thanks for your thoughts Jeff. Agreed with you and John that the front 9 has too many shorties on it.

I really think both 1+9 could be shortend to some great long 4's and 7 could be lengthened to a great 4 as well. 

I really disliked 16 as well until they brought the bunkers in and changed the angles with the redesign. Its much better but still not one of my favs there. 18 is by far my favorite hole though. Nothing beats that approach shot and that green to finish the round. They have vastly expanded the green too almost 150% of what it used to be, yet still having the predominantly false front for the first 2/5. 

[Jeff Shelman]

I should have mentioned a couple other things.

I really like the approach to 2. After a pretty easy first hole, it's a total knee-knocker. Even though you have a short iron or a wedge in your hand, it's a tough shot because you know the consequences for missing.

I think No. 8 is a really good hole. I also like 15 a lot.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I should have mentioned a couple other things.

I really like the approach to 2. After a pretty easy first hole, it's a total knee-knocker. Even though you have a short iron or a wedge in your hand, it's a tough shot because you know the consequences for missing.

I think No. 8 is a really good hole. I also like 15 a lot.

2 always gets people thinking.

My favorites are 18 followed so very closely by both 13 and 15.

[Jason Topp]

Here is Scott's AOTD.  I think quite a few trees have been removed since this picture.

The back 9 (front for the tournament) has 7 holes South of the road with the 18th returning to the clubhouse along the North side of the road.

The front 9 (back for the tournament) starts with the par 5 headed North on the left side of the picture and finishes with the lilly pond par five over the water just to the right of number 1.

The terrain is pretty hilly which does not show up on the picture.  

[Jason Topp]

Double post - deleted

[Greg Krueger]

Jason, thanks for the overhead! Interlachen is fantastic classic golf course and without a doubt belongs in the top 100. I was going to go to the tournament but my nephew is getting married in September so I had to choose between the two. I made my choice but my mother overruled!!!

[Dan Kelly]

I think Interlachen is BURDENED by its ranking.

If it weren't listed in some silly magazine's silly TOP 100, everyone on this board would love it.

No one would be complaining that there are too many short-iron approaches.

Just for my information: How many short-iron approaches are there at some of the other beloved courses?

How many at the Old Course? How many at Myopia Hunt Club? How many at Pacific Dunes? How many at Cypress Point?

How many, for that matter, at White Bear Yacht Club -- which, if it were listed in some silly magazine's silly TOP 100, some here would be tearing down, instead of itching to play.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I think Interlachen is BURDENED by its ranking.

If it weren't listed in some silly magazine's silly TOP 100, everyone on this board would love it.

No one would be complaining that there are too many short-iron approaches.

Just for my information: How many short-iron approaches are there at some of the other beloved courses?

How many at the Old Course? How many at Myopia Hunt Club? How many at Pacific Dunes? How many at Cypress Point?

How many, for that matter, at White Bear Yacht Club -- which, if it were listed in some silly magazine's silly TOP 100, some here would be tearing down, instead of itching to play.

I am always itching to play Interlachen Dan, I wasn't tearing it down but simply agreeing with those who said it wasn't a top 100 course because it wouldn't hold up to the "independent contractors of the PGA" which seems to these days be part of the equation of how good good a course is. I would say it will always be a top 100 classic course and probably could argue a top 50 classic course.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan K:

The issue for me at least is not that Interlachen is that bad of a course but that the resulting competition has certainly raised the bar over the last number of years. Dan, there are plenty of superb new courses that have opened inthe last 20-25 years that have clearly surpassed Interlachen.

Dan, you need to realize this -- too many people, here on GCA and elsewhere, elevate non-course related items when evaluating the course itself. That includes previous championships and who specifically won them.

Interlachen will be a fine venue for the Women's Open and the die-hard fans of the Twin Cities area will be out in force. That's not in dispute.

Check out the comments from John Conley -- the primary focus is about "tradition" which in real terms means highlighting the past at the expense of the present.

I just don't see the design elements of Interlachen worthy of national acclaim. The course can handle the ladies and amateurs but frankly would be chop liver for the top men players. It's the old story that a course may be worthy of fanfare for the specific state it's in but when you expand the box to include the USA as a whole it's an entirely different matter -- at least for me it is.

Dan, as much as you have convulsions over ratings -- they do serve as a benchmark for comparisons and contrasts and so long as people who comment on them are fairly active can make for a good discussion on how the merits of a course (lack thereof) play out. Simple as that.

Gents:

Keep this in mind the overall floor of Minnesota golf is quite good but candidly I don't see any of the top tier layouts (although I have not played Brauer's contributions in the extreme northeast thus far) really being worthy of national acclaim. That doesn't mean they are not good courses but I have not really seen the element of compelling architecture that would place them in the highest of elite positions.

Greg K:

Glad to know you believe Interlachen is a top 100 course from the ones you have played. Just so I can know -- how many of the current 100 (Digest or Golf Magazine listing) have you played?

[Rick Shefchik]

I just don't see the design elements of Interlachen worthy of national acclaim. The course can handle the ladies and amateurs but frankly would be chop liver for the top men players. It's the old story that a course may be worthy of fanfare for the specific state it's in but when you expand the box to include the USA as a whole it's an entirely different matter.

Though Interlachen is not my favorite Minnesota course, I'd like to raise two points: Is that how we rate a golf course these days -- level of difficulty for the top male touring pros?

And it hasn't been Minnesota raters or publications that keep putting Interlachen on the Top 100 lists.

[Dan Kelly]

Dan, as much as you have convulsions over ratings -- they do serve as a benchmark for comparisons and contrasts and so long as people who comment on them are fairly active can make for a good discussion on how the merits of a course (lack thereof) play out. Simple as that.

Matt --

I have never had a single convulsion over ratings.

I have not said a single word against ratings.

I have absolutely no objection to ratings.

It's *rankings* that I don't like.

I will give you **** (on this occasion) if you will please understand the difference.

Mr. Doak's 10-point system, by way of example, is a rating system. I see no reason for him (or anyone) to rank the 10s, and then the 9s, etc.

Dan

P.S. Mr. Doak gave Interlachen a 6 -- and commented: "... I think the place gets some brownie points for its history and stature in the community; I'm not sure the course is really as exciting as its advance billing."
   Again, I say: I think Interlachen's "advance billing" is a burden to the golf course. Would it have merited a Doak 7 ("An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning, and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf") if it didn't have its "advance billing"? I think the answer is yes.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Mr. Doak gave Interlachen a 6 -- and commented: "... I think the place gets some brownie points for its history and stature in the community; I'm not sure the course is really as exciting as its advance billing."
   Again, I say: I think Interlachen's "advance billing" is a burden to the golf course. Would it have merited a Doak 7 ("An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning, and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf") if it didn't have its "advance billing"? I think the answer is yes.

Very good point here Dan. I would agree that because it's tradition is over-hyped the course suffers from those expecting an excellent (8 Doak Scale) course when really it's a 7 and a great course but definitely not excellent. The disappointment (not speaking for Tom but perhaps he could chime in here himself) drives it down from 7 to 6 in people's minds most likely.

Matt- I wonder the same as Rick, does a course have to be able to challenge touring pro men to be a top 100 golf course?

[John_Conley]

There have been some comments about #2.  It finally hit me...I don't think it is very hard because I know how to play it.

The key is staying out of the bunkers L and R.  The green just isn't wide enough to give you many chances to get up and down if you are in either.

Ideally the green is approached from the right side of the fairway with a short approach.  Green light.  Stay below the hole.

If you do not have a green light, play to the short front and chip or putt from the collar.  Because you are playing uphill there is a high likelihood of par. 

The problems people have on this hole result from trying to do too much with the approach.  Walker Cup players in 1993 played back off the tee (since their tee was back) and came in with 8 or 9 irons.  They didn't have any problem with it, nor will most decent players with PW or SW.

Drive it L?  No problem, roll it out of the trees to the front.  Don't like your approach lie or angle?  No problem, play short to the front.

If they decide to put a bunker fronting the green with a steep face it renders this suggestion moot.

[Matt_Ward]

Patrick / Rick:

Check out what Doak said about Shinnecock Hills in Confidential Guide. While I don't expect all courses to be anywhere near the level as the great one from Long Island I have to say this -- the truly great courses in the USA -- at least the ones I have played -- have the CAPACITY and ELASTICITY to test all types of players. And that includes the top men players. Please try to realize I didn't say ONLY the men -- I did say though that a much wider elasticity than simply the women and amateurs only.

Doak was spot on with his comments in CG regarding Interlachen. The "tradition" category is nothing more than a band-aid remedy to keep the past layouts in the overall ballgame for consideration. The elite courses of the USA should be recognized for what they provide architecturally as of 2008. Not from upteen years ago. Unfortunately, this type of thing is not only related to the Interlachens of the world.

Throw Interlachen in the talent rich waters of Metro NYC or Philadelphia and the place would be lucky -- and I mean lucky -- to sniff even a footnote of attention. Being in the Twin Cities area has actually been a real plus in so many ways given the active membership and the desire of the club to have hosted so many key USGA events over the years.

The course will do well with the Women's Open and I say this again -- I still like the layout but if someone truly believes it belongs at the highest of elite levels then they really need to play quite a few other courses as a means of comparisons / contrasts.

Dan K:

I hear what you say -- re: rankings.

However ...

Many things are ranked and that includes golf courses. I like Interlachen and only weighed in on where others (see the other magazines previously mentioned) have placed the course.

One further thing -- Doak's "rating" system is truly a ranking. The sheer placement of numbers indicates his personal preferences as to where those courses play out for him.

[John_Conley]

Matt, you seem to want others to say Interlachen is the most overrated course on the GD Top 100.  It seems like Patrick and I, two people that know every blade of grass on the grounds, are in complete agreement.  Shefchik, Kelly, and Shelman, three others from the Twin Towns, raise the question - a valid one - about what constitutes a great course. 

It seems the only demerit, if there is one, is that it isn't as "resistant to scoring" as other courses like Wannamoisett (par 69), Inverness, or Oak Hill.

Interlachen is a great golf course.

As for your assertion that Tradition props up ICC, remember my suggestion from the past that the Top 100 be expanded to the Top 150.  Interlachen can't be any worse or better today than it was 25 years ago.  The number of Shadow Creeks, Sand Hills, and Calusa Pines has surely affected what it means to be Top 100.

[mark chalfant]

Matt

Whats your opinion  on White Bear Yacht and Golden Valley
thanks


gents 
thanks for info  on Somerset

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Matt, you seem to want others to say Interlachen is the most overrated course on the GD Top 100.  It seems like Patrick and I, two people that know every blade of grass on the grounds, are in complete agreement.  Shefchik, Kelly, and Shelman, three others from the Twin Towns, raise the question - a valid one - about what constitutes a great course. 

It seems the only demerit, if there is one, is that it isn't as "resistant to scoring" as other courses like Wannamoisett (par 69), Inverness, or Oak Hill.

Interlachen is a great golf course.

As for your assertion that Tradition props up ICC, remember my suggestion from the past that the Top 100 be expanded to the Top 150.  Interlachen can't be any worse or better today than it was 25 years ago.  The number of Shadow Creeks, Sand Hills, and Calusa Pines has surely affected what it means to be Top 100.

Good points here too, thanks John.

Matt if they change a few holes (shorten 2-3 of the par-5's into long 4's) to make Interlachen a par 70 or 71, rather than 73, would it change your belief in its over-ratedness? Maybe just expand what you see as its main deficiencies?

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