[mark chalfant]

Im looking forward to watching the 2008  Womens Open here. A really
charming  piece of land with some nice short par fours and some roller coaster par fives. Primarily a Ross design now. I dont know  if any of Willie Watson's holes remain.

Minnesota has many fine Golden Age courses.  In the twin cities
my favorites are  White Bear Yacht, Interlachen, and Golden Valley. Any thoughts on Interlachen or other classics by Ross or  Raynor in the state

Thanks

[David Stamm]

Mark, it was my understanding that Willie Watson originally did Interlachen in 1910, no?

[Jason Topp]

I'm looking forward to it. My teaching pro is there so I have been on the range many times even though I have only played it a couple of times.

Minneapolis has 5 courses that are largely Ross courses.  I have not played White Bear Lake but Doak speaks very highly of it.  If I were given the choice to play any of them, I may well pick a different one each day. 

Interlachen

Minnikahda- recent major restoration.

White Bear Yacht Club - supposed to be largely unaltered

Minneapolis - recent bunker work I have not seen.  More straightforward 7000 yard course site of 1959 PGA.

Woodhill - over treed and on swampy land but great fun to play with terrific views and great old money atmosphere.


The Twin Cities have 3 Raynor Courses

Somerset - great layout on somewhat swampy land.  Similar to Woodhill in feel of the club.

Minnesota Valley - Some of the templates have lost their original characteristics but a very fun course

Midland Hills - a bit tree choked and considered the third of the 3 Raynor courses in town.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I grew up caddying at Interlachen (as did John Conley) and it is a wonderful old Ross course. I was unaware until just this year that RTJ had done a renovation in the 60's on the 1928 redesign by Ross (Watson did the original in 1909). 2 years ago they brought in Ron Prichard to bring back the Ross and he did a wonderful job. Prichard said of the course RTJ had left as a course with bowling alley fariways with bunkers serving as gutters along the sides. He re-did all the bunkers and brought a lot of them into play by angling them into the fairway and it adds so much to the design. #8 is truly now the #1 handicap hole on the course after the bunkers were brought into the fairway and really force you to think from the tee even more so than before. (The far bunker already took driver out of some people's hands and forced a 3-wood but now the inside bunker has been brought in and really makes you think about hitting 3-wood even.)

Other changes were to expand all the greens to what they were back in Ross' day when Bobby Jones won the 3rd leg of his Grand Slam in the 1930 US Open. Some green like #18 are almost 150% bigger than before.

They also have taken down over 500 trees in the last 3 years. It has really opened up some great views all over the course.

The ladies will be playing from 6,789 yards which will be the longest ever which will be very interesting to see as well.

As they did for the 2002 Solheim Cup they will be reversing the two 9's which is too bad imo. 18 is just such a great finishing hole. That being said with #8,#9 playing as #17,#18 it should make for great t.v. as #17 will be a tough as nails 430 yard par 4 with a wicked fast and tough green and #18 as a very good risk/reward hole that should present some great scoring opportunities. I would not be surprised to see #17 have a higher avg. score over the week than #18.

I will be back in town next week and am planning on taking extensive pictures to post for everyone to see. Would also be happy to answer anyone's questions as well.

[John_Conley]

Im looking forward to watching the 2008  Womens Open here. A really
charming  piece of land with some nice short par fours and some roller coaster par fives. Primarily a Ross design now. I dont know  if any of Willie Watson's holes remain.

Minnesota has many fine Golden Age courses.  In the twin cities
my favorites are  White Bear Yacht, Interlachen, and Golden Valley. Any thoughts on Interlachen or other classics by Ross or  Raynor in the state

Thanks

PERFECT course for the Women's Open.  The Solheim Cup saw center hole locations so they won't recognize the place if the USGA goes with fast green speeds and some of the challenging spots.

Mark, you are right about Golden Age courses.  What strikes me is the variety.  Stanley Thompson did North Oaks.  RTJ did Hazeltine.  Ross, Tillinghast (Golden Valley - my personal area fave), and Raynor.

[John_Conley]

Minneapolis has 5 courses that are largely Ross courses.  I have not played White Bear Lake but Doak speaks very highly of it.  If I were given the choice to play any of them, I may well pick a different one each day. 

Interlachen

Minnikahda- recent major restoration.

White Bear Yacht Club - supposed to be largely unaltered

Minneapolis - recent bunker work I have not seen.  More straightforward 7000 yard course site of 1959 PGA.

Woodhill - over treed and on swampy land but great fun to play with terrific views and great old money atmosphere.


The Twin Cities have 3 Raynor Courses

Somerset - great layout on somewhat swampy land.  Similar to Woodhill in feel of the club.

Minnesota Valley - Some of the templates have lost their original characteristics but a very fun course

Midland Hills - a bit tree choked and considered the third of the 3 Raynor courses in town.

Jason, I have never heard Minneapolis Golf Club attributed to Ross.  Good course though.  Personifies 'Parkland'.

Minikahda is pretty awesome after that bunkerwork.  A terrific golf course.

White Bear is a trip.  Extreme golf.  You'd love it.

Midland is fair at best and Minnesota Valley is just good, but Somerset is wicked underrated.  I hear people go ga-ga over Mountain Lake, but Somerset is far superior.  That high corner with #2 green and #3 tee is cool and the really good #4 Redan.  One course that was greatly improved by the addition of pulled back tees on the Par 4s.

[John_Conley]

I grew up caddying at Interlachen (as did John Conley) and it is a wonderful old Ross course. I was unaware until just this year that RTJ had done a renovation in the 60's on the 1928 redesign by Ross (Watson did the original in 1909). 2 years ago they brought in Ron Prichard to bring back the Ross and he did a wonderful job. Prichard said of the course RTJ had left as a course with bowling alley fariways with bunkers serving as gutters along the sides. He re-did all the bunkers and brought a lot of them into play by angling them into the fairway and it adds so much to the design. #8 is truly now the #1 handicap hole on the course after the bunkers were brought into the fairway and really force you to think from the tee even more so than before. (The far bunker already took driver out of some people's hands and forced a 3-wood but now the inside bunker has been brought in and really makes you think about hitting 3-wood even.)

Patrick, my understanding is that RT Jones is the one that converted #1 from a par 4 with the green short of the pond to a par 5 with the green up against the fence.  Probably around 1970?  If I'm not mistaken, one longtime member (C.G., lives on the course on back nine) made an eagle 2 shortly before it was moved and is the last person to make 2 on the hole.

Geoffrey Cornish was brought in when I caddied there, probably in the mid-80s.  He put a post at 250 from the back tee to indicate landing areas and several members thought they were from the normal tee...and nobody was playing the tips back then.

The course is largely changed, albeit gradually.  I saw a photo from the 30s that had HUGE garish chocolate drops between #6 and #10.  Seriously, they looked like Nicklaus 80s mounding like you'd find at Grand Cypress, or Loxahatchee I'm told.  The grass bunker 45 yards out on #14 was at one time sand.  (Maybe it is again.  Haven't played there for a while.)  Once there was a short bunker on the right side of #15, which probably was taken out because it would only catch ladies drive and sentence them to a disastrous fate.

A maintenance issue that significantly affects play has been whether elevated greens like #4, #7, #12, and #18 have rough or fairway in front of them.  I'm confused as to which were what when I caddied, but obviously balls would roll all the way back if short shots didn't find rough.  I want to say #4 was fairway when I started caddying and added rough.  #18 was rough when I caddied, but had been fairway before that...I know, I heard stories.

Despite these changes, Interlachen is a great course, primarily because of undulating fairways and a varied routing.  While there are many short par 4s (which won't be a problem for the Women's Open), they throw a lot of looks at you.  Like many old courses, greens designed with slower green speeds in mind provide a great equalizer.  It can be hard to score because there's almost always the risk of a 3-putt.  You don't want to get above the hole.

It will be interesting to see if the ladies know to stay short of the hole.  Minnesotans grow up learning to play below the hole on every hole at these Golden Age courses.  When I interviewed Tim Herron after winning the State Am at Golden Valley he said his goal for the week was to not hit it past the hole.  (Which he did, for 54 holes en route to about -10.)

I'll watch this for sure.

[Phil McDade]

John and Patrick:

I recall watching parts of the Solheim Cup there; the course looked quite good back then. What's the logic behind switching nines for a major tournament? Crowd issues? Better finishing holes (or, perceived as....).

In many ways, the USGA has done a very good job of playing the Women's Open at courses that are really fascinating to see (Prairie Dunes, Newport...).

[Patrick Hodgdon]

John and Patrick:

I recall watching parts of the Solheim Cup there; the course looked quite good back then. What's the logic behind switching nines for a major tournament? Crowd issues? Better finishing holes (or, perceived as....).

In many ways, the USGA has done a very good job of playing the Women's Open at courses that are really fascinating to see (Prairie Dunes, Newport...).

The only reason I heard then and now is the crowd having to cross Interachen Blvd. (a busy through street nowdays) to go from 17 to 18. Personally I think for a major championship golf tournament you could close the road down but I also think that #9 is much easier to put large grandstands on as well which is probably a factor. (Side-note as part of the tree removal they removed a set of very ugly pine trees that sat between #9 green and #7 tee. Most of the membership went nuts because they thought this was solely to put a large grandstand there for the Open. Whether it was solely the USGA's call or not they failed to see that the trees were ugly and it greatly improved views on both holes.) #18 is a far superior finishing hole imo but as I mentioned above using 8,9 as 17,18 will make for some great t.v. anyway.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I grew up caddying at Interlachen (as did John Conley) and it is a wonderful old Ross course. I was unaware until just this year that RTJ had done a renovation in the 60's on the 1928 redesign by Ross (Watson did the original in 1909). 2 years ago they brought in Ron Prichard to bring back the Ross and he did a wonderful job. Prichard said of the course RTJ had left as a course with bowling alley fariways with bunkers serving as gutters along the sides. He re-did all the bunkers and brought a lot of them into play by angling them into the fairway and it adds so much to the design. #8 is truly now the #1 handicap hole on the course after the bunkers were brought into the fairway and really force you to think from the tee even more so than before. (The far bunker already took driver out of some people's hands and forced a 3-wood but now the inside bunker has been brought in and really makes you think about hitting 3-wood even.)

Patrick, my understanding is that RT Jones is the one that converted #1 from a par 4 with the green short of the pond to a par 5 with the green up against the fence.  Probably around 1970?  If I'm not mistaken, one longtime member (C.G., lives on the course on back nine) made an eagle 2 shortly before it was moved and is the last person to make 2 on the hole.

Geoffrey Cornish was brought in when I caddied there, probably in the mid-80s.  He put a post at 250 from the back tee to indicate landing areas and several members thought they were from the normal tee...and nobody was playing the tips back then.

The course is largely changed, albeit gradually.  I saw a photo from the 30s that had HUGE garish chocolate drops between #6 and #10.  Seriously, they looked like Nicklaus 80s mounding like you'd find at Grand Cypress, or Loxahatchee I'm told.  The grass bunker 45 yards out on #14 was at one time sand.  (Maybe it is again.  Haven't played there for a while.)  Once there was a short bunker on the right side of #15, which probably was taken out because it would only catch ladies drive and sentence them to a disastrous fate.

A maintenance issue that significantly affects play has been whether elevated greens like #4, #7, #12, and #18 have rough or fairway in front of them.  I'm confused as to which were what when I caddied, but obviously balls would roll all the way back if short shots didn't find rough.  I want to say #4 was fairway when I started caddying and added rough.  #18 was rough when I caddied, but had been fairway before that...I know, I heard stories.

#14 again has a bunker as does 15. Both were replaced about 5-6 years ago. #15 only really affects the ladies but it did catch enough from one guy member who played a low hook that it now has his name attached to it.

#4 has been shaved down the past 2 years and was rough previously since '98 when I started there. They have also recently shaved down half of the hill on #12 which is cool. #7 has always been fairway up to the green during my time.

[Jason Topp]

The only reason I heard then and now is the crowd having to cross Interachen Blvd. (a busy through street nowdays) to go from 17 to 18. Personally I think for a major championship golf tournament you could close the road down

It will be interesting to see how they handle the road because, if they do block it off completely, they would be inconvieniencing some of the most powerful people in the state.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

The only reason I heard then and now is the crowd having to cross Interachen Blvd. (a busy through street nowdays) to go from 17 to 18. Personally I think for a major championship golf tournament you could close the road down

It will be interesting to see how they handle the road because, if they do block it off completely, they would be inconvieniencing some of the most powerful people in the state.

I think I remember that they simply stopped traffic for big crowd changes during the Solheim. I thought they could have done this for an #18 finish which is why I think the ability to better grandstand #9 has a lot to do with the switch.

[Matt_Ward]

Not to rain on the parade of mutual admiration but in the two different times I played Interlachen I was not impressed given all the hoopla I read before getting there.

The course is not remotely close to being a top 100 course from the ones Ihave played -- although Digest has it at #62 and Golfweek features it in the classic courses with a 51st position. Golf Magazine also rates the layout as #72.

Frankly, I don't see how Interlachen would be able to handle any of the top male players in the game and I see much of the celebration of the course tied to what Jones did there years and years ago.

I love Minnesota golf and I'm not here to trash Interlachen but for people to see it as being one of the real ultra superb greats in American design simply escapes me.

For the Women's Open though -- it may work out just fine. Especially if it becomes a going away present for Annika.

[Dan Kelly]

Not to rain on the parade of mutual admiration but in the two different times I played Interlachen I was not impressed given all the hoopla I read before getting there.

I've never played Interlachen (don't know how to play my cards, I guess, or perhaps am just unwilling to play them), but I wonder:

If there'd been no hoopla, Matt, what wouldn't you have liked?

I've walked the course many times, and it looks like wonderful fun from start to finish, whichever order you play the nines.

Forget, for a moment, where it's ranked. What's not to like?

[Rick Shefchik]

Matt, your post probably won't be popular among most Minnesotans on this board, but I tend to agree with you. I love the ambiance of Interlachen; the clubhouse and grounds drip with history, like a great East Coast or British Isles course, but I don't know that it's a Top 100. Maybe now that some of the  trees have been removed, its playing characteristics are on better display. I had fun the couple of times I was fortunate enough to play there, but I agree with you that Bobby Jones's exploits at the 1930 U.S. Open have to account for a fair amount of the course's current reputation.

I'd never turn down a round there -- as if I'd get an invitation after this post -- but there are other classics in the Twin Cities I'd play first, Somerset and White Bear being at the top of the list.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

I believe Interlachen benefits from what Jones did there in his Slam year -- rather than what the course actually provides from a design perspective.

In some ways it represents for me the Minnesota version of what you see with Scioto in Columbus, OH. In the latter case - you also have the name of Jones and throw into the picture the Golden Bear too.

I have played the course twice and I want to make this perfectly clear -- I am not dissing the course as some sort of wasted experience -- but my take is one tied to whether the level of design is that compelling to merit a top 100 placement.

I just don't see it as being that good -- it might have been years ago but not now given the range and diversity of courses I have played.
 

[Dan Kelly]

Matt and Rick --

See, this is what I hate about rankings: More often than not, they trump everything else.

I don't care whether Interlachen is "Top 100" or not.

I want to know:

-- Where and how is Interlachen deficient?

and

-- Why would you rather play White Bear or Somerset?

As Rick knows, I've played Somerset several times, very happily -- but see absolutely no reason to PREFER it to Interlachen.

Enlighten me?

Dan

[John_Conley]

Matt, I think there is validity to your point.  I don't concur with your assessment that it isn't close to Top 100, but I agree with the rest of it.

For years Interlachen and Hazeltine were perennials on the Golf Digest Top 100.  To the rest of the country the Twin Cities were known as home of those two.  Working and caddying there for a total of a decade, I can assure you that any visitors looking to see the best Minnesota had to offer contacted these two courses first.  In doing so they overlooked Minikahda, Golden Valley, Somerset, North Oaks, Minneapolis, Oak Ridge, Edina, White Bear, and other very good courses.  The perception, I feel fueled by the GD (pun intended) Top 100 list is that there is a falloff from Interlachen.

In reality there are courses that are either equal or just a quarter-peg behind ICC.  You know the names by now.  Golden Valley, despite some oddities, has always been my favorite from a 'most fun to play' standpoint.  (Granted, if I played it as many times as I did Interlachen it may get old.)  Minikahda, which I saw two years ago, is probably a superior golf course today.

One thing I can say to address the comment about the course not being stout enough to handle today's top males is that the par 73s in the Twins, mentioned in Confidential Guide as a uniquely Minnesotan thing, can easily be modernized.  The 1993 Walker Cup was played at par 72 and Minikahda's card now reads the same.  I've long asserted that if you took college players to Golden Valley and didn't give them a scorecard, they'd assume par 70 and walk off the course talking about those three hard par 4s.  (As par 5s they are a joke in the modern game.)

Interlachen has something nothing else in Minnesota does...a remarkable history.  Bobby Jones the year he won the Slam.  Glenna Collette Vare in the Am during her prime.  I believe the course was to hole another male Open that was scrubbed due to war.  The club was awarded a US Mid-Am, swapped when Chicago Golf was unable to meet USGA membership requirements.  A Solheim Cup and now the lady Open.

Minikahda is close, with I think two male Opens to their credit and a Walker Cup.  The two courses are remarkably similar, although 'kahda finished with the short 4s and Interlachen gets most of them out of the way by #10.

There is no question that Interlachen is one of the clubs that benefits from the Tradition category.  A great course, though, which you also mention.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Actually I don't see you raining on anyone's parade Matt. That's what is great about this site. I do think ICC will be a great venue for the women and with the greens as fast as they can get will provide a very tough challenge to the ladies especially being the longest they've seen.

I am curious though have you played it in the last 2 years after the renovations by Prichard? It is a much better course after the fact and simply by pulling in all of the fairway bunkers and redesigning them as grass-faced has added a lot to the course's design. There is a lot more strategy off the tee on some of the holes to add to it already being a classic Ross course with demanding approaches and greens.

That being said I agree this course will soon fall off the top 100 as more and more great new courses are built and as the tradition category that has held Interlachen up for so long slowly fades away.

However, I also don't see any course in the Twin Cities or MN to surpass it as #1 in the State. I still think it offers more design value than Hazeltine  and although I haven't played Spring Hill most don't consider it a better course. Minnikahda I think would probably be what I would rank a close second to ICC after their own renovations.

[John_Conley]

I want to know:

-- Where and how is Interlachen deficient?

Dan, there are just too many short approach shots for a strong player during the first 12 holes.  It gets pretty tough at the end.

#1 is generally played with a second to the 100 yard area, leaving a wedge.

Unless the tee is back on #2 it is pretty easy to drive over the hill and have a PW or SW.  As you get back the trees on the box are in play and you actually are incented to layup shorter and have 150ish in.  

#4 is also about 90 yards in.

#6 and #7 leave approaches under 125.

#9 is just a pitch for the third, if not a putter.

In 1993 Todd Demsey waited for the green to clear before hitting his drive on #10.  A solid drive leaves just 100.

#11 has been made into a par 4 to combat the shortness.  Site of my only double-eagle.  (I wasn't pleased to hear they now call it a 4!)

#12, for all the challenge, is still a sub-550 par 5 that gives strong players another Wedge.

Can a great course be this short?  Yes, but don't be surprised if something else is more acclaimed.

I repeat - this is a PERFECT course for the girls.  They aren't going to find it this short.

[Rick Shefchik]

For me, it always comes down to holes I'm dying to play again. Not necessarily memorable -- I certainly have vivid memories of 1, 9, 10, 17 and 18. But the rest of the course blurs a bit, even though I spent a fair amount of time walking the grounds during the Walker Cup some years back. And of the holes I mentioned, none would rank as a particular favorite in the Twin Cities. Maybe 10 -- a short, straight par 4 that falls off sharply on either side of the green, and not much like anything else I can think off around here. But even 10 might not crack my personal Twin Cities 18. I can't believe I've put myself in the position of dissing such an outstanding course, and that's not what I mean to be doing here, but again it comes down to other local courses I like better.

To be more specific, I don't think there's a hole at Interlachen I like as much as #4, #9, #10, #11 or #16 at Somerset.

[John_Conley]

Actually I don't see you raining on anyone's parade Matt. That's what is great about this site. I do think ICC will be a great venue for the women and with the greens as fast as they can get will provide a very tough challenge to the ladies especially being the longest they've seen.

You gonna call me or what?

[John_Conley]

To be more specific, I don't think there's a hole at Interlachen I like as much as #4, #9, #10, #11 or #16 at Somerset.

10 at Somerset?!  I hate that thing!

[Rick Shefchik]

That's why this board exists, John.

[Rick Shefchik]

By the way, 10 at Somerset reminds me a lot of #11 at Pasatiempo, for what it's worth.

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