Why don't you hear much about Milwaukee CC?

[Niall Hay]

Is Milwaukee CC is considered Colt and Alison's best work in the US? Never played it just curious. (Aside from whatever influence Colt had at Pine Valley)

Great question Nigel.  Who would the other candidates even be?

[Tom_Doak]

Other candidates for the best Colt and Alison course in the US would be the Country Club of Detroit, Bob O'Link, and one of the courses in Cleveland which I haven't seen.  But I think I'd give Milwaukee CC the nod.

[Niall Hay]

Kirtland?

[Phil McDade]

Phil - Were the players in the Mid Am playing their tee shots away from that left hand bunker on #18?  At 240 yards from the tee, I'm surprised why each player wouldn't just challenge that bunker and go over it.  Playing to the right leads to more difficulties on the hole.  If the player is short, it results in a blind approach off an uphill lie.  Furthermore, if you hit it too long and end up in the right fairway bunker, then you have tree issues and a difficult angle of approach to the green.  The approach shot must be precise especially with the greens shaved off edges.  If you do end up going long, then you'll be faced with a difficult uphill pitch from a tight lie from the first tee.  Good luck on this recovery shot especially with a gallery of pro shop attendants and other golfers watching. 

Ron:

I have little doubt (and talked to a few guys during practice rounds) that the big left-side bunker had an impact on how players took on that hole -- remember that's an uphill tee shot of some significance, and unlike, say, the U.S. Amateur (where everyone hits it long!), the Mid-Am had quite a bit of range in terms of player length. Mickelson (Tim, who is much skinnier than his brother ) deliberately played away from it during his match, because he's not that long. That left-side fairway bunker is also pretty penal -- nearly all of Milwaukee CC's bunkers feature quite high lips, and those on 18 are among the highest on the course. It's a tough shot to get on the green from that bunker.

[Howard Riefs]

Is Milwaukee CC is considered Colt and Alison's best work in the US? Never played it just curious. (Aside from whatever influence Colt had at Pine Valley)

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47938.0.html

[Ron Csigo]

Phil - Were the players in the Mid Am playing their tee shots away from that left hand bunker on #18?  At 240 yards from the tee, I'm surprised why each player wouldn't just challenge that bunker and go over it.  Playing to the right leads to more difficulties on the hole.  If the player is short, it results in a blind approach off an uphill lie.  Furthermore, if you hit it too long and end up in the right fairway bunker, then you have tree issues and a difficult angle of approach to the green.  The approach shot must be precise especially with the greens shaved off edges.  If you do end up going long, then you'll be faced with a difficult uphill pitch from a tight lie from the first tee.  Good luck on this recovery shot especially with a gallery of pro shop attendants and other golfers watching. 

Ron:

I have little doubt (and talked to a few guys during practice rounds) that the big left-side bunker had an impact on how players took on that hole -- remember that's an uphill tee shot of some significance, and unlike, say, the U.S. Amateur (where everyone hits it long!), the Mid-Am had quite a bit of range in terms of player length. Mickelson (Tim, who is much skinnier than his brother ) deliberately played away from it during his match, because he's not that long. That left-side fairway bunker is also pretty penal -- nearly all of Milwaukee CC's bunkers feature quite high lips, and those on 18 are among the highest on the course. It's a tough shot to get on the green from that bunker.

Phil - I just thought every guy at that level hit it long enough and that bunker wasn't a factor!  Bad assumption on my part. 

[Phil McDade]

Ron:

One of the interesting things about that championship is the evolution of what's known as a mid-amateur player. The guy who won -- Steve Wilson out of Mississippi -- was once a pro who hung around the mini-tours for a while then "restored" his amateur status (the practice of which is somewhat controversial in mid-am circles). There are a few of those guys who regularly qualify for the Mid-Am championship, and they tend to be pretty big hitters. But, I thought the neat thing about Milwaukee CC is that the traditional mid-am guy -- mid-40s to mid-50s -- could play the course alongside the big hitters by adroitly figuring out where (and where not) to go there. A few of them made the round of 8, if I recall (last year's Mid-Am champion was 54!).

[David Bartman]

Ron:

One of the interesting things about that championship is the evolution of what's known as a mid-amateur player. The guy who won -- Steve Wilson out of Mississippi -- was once a pro who hung around the mini-tours for a while then "restored" his amateur status (the practice of which is somewhat controversial in mid-am circles). There are a few of those guys who regularly qualify for the Mid-Am championship, and they tend to be pretty big hitters. But, I thought the neat thing about Milwaukee CC is that the traditional mid-am guy -- mid-40s to mid-50s -- could play the course alongside the big hitters by adroitly figuring out where (and where not) to go there. A few of them made the round of 8, if I recall (last year's Mid-Am champion was 54!).

Phil,

Many of the top Mid ams in the country used to be professionals, but certainly not most of them.  I think about 1/3 of the last US Mid had reinstated amateurs.  The top Mid ams in the country have no issue with players being reinstated.  There was one guy, in the east, who actually won a PGA Tour event that was reinstated, that was a bit weird.  Dillard Pruitt?  I think you are off on the average age of the typical US Mid-am participant, I am sure its in the 30's , probably 35-37, and I feel that number is getting lower each year,  maybe because I am getting older! 

I played in the Mid Am at MCC, and the course was terrific, a great mix of long, short and doglegs in both directions.  As to the bunker on 18, most of us could fly it , but it really depended on your shot shape in stroke play.  As to match play I would assume it really would be determined on how the match stood.   I played crappy so I didn't make match play.  I did stick around a few days to watch some of my friends in matches and the course was both challenging and beautiful.  The other course across the street, Brown dear park, seemed like a pasture with an ill advised creed running though the middle of it in comparison. 

[Phil McDade]

David:

I'm sure the typical mid-am player competing at that level in his 30s. I was referencing what I thought of as a traditional career amateur who is too young to qualify for the senior Am, and doesn't quite have the game for the US Amateur. There are still quite a few good ones out there.

I've actually run into some purists who think anyone who competed at the professional level shouldn't be eligible for any of the USGA amateur competitions. Obviously, the USGA has a reinstatement policy for doing so, but there is an argument out there about the proper balance. http://www.usga.org/rules/amateur_status/reinstatement/Apply-for-Reinstatement-to-Amateur-Status/

[David Bartman]

I agree that there are plenty of good players in their late 40's early 50's that have very few tournaments in which they can really be competitive.  Most of the championship courses that are played in USGA events are set up in such a way, hard and fast, penal around the greens, so that all golfer types can be competitive, and MCC was no different, even after some rain, the course dried out pretty quickly.  I have no clue why the USGA hasn't changed the senior am age to 50 to mesh with the senior pro age requirements. 

Running into purists and calling the reinstatement practices somewhat controversial in mid-am circles are two very different things.  I am a national mid am and we never have had a conversation about it, aside from a jab or two at those who have been reinstated, mid am events much more about camaraderie and fun as opposed to the US Am which is about winning and recognition.   I was lucky enough to play in both in 2008 at Pinehurst and MCC so I got to see first hand what the difference was in the two events. 

The mid am provides a great opportunity to see friends that you might have made on your college team, or amateur events one might have played in when we were all in college together.  It's not until a few rounds of match play go buy that where results are even discussed at dinner, its mostly about catching up and enjoying what is usually a very good golf course and seeing old buddies and telling  stories.   

 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jim I have heard the same. I so regret playing Erin Hills instead. Or for that matter anyof my second rounds at WS could have been dropped for that gem.

[J_ Crisham]

Other candidates for the best Colt and Alison course in the US would be the Country Club of Detroit, Bob O'Link, and one of the courses in Cleveland which I haven't seen.  But I think I'd give Milwaukee CC the nod.

Tom, I am curious as to your incusion of Bob O Link- admittedly the atmosphere is very enjoyable but the course itself is a struggle to rate above a 5. Besides being very overchoked with trees, how many truly memorable holes does it have? A couple of nice par 3's. The par 5's are mediocre at best. The property has little to no movement in it, the ponds are about the only natural defense. 9 is a pretty good hole but for those of us that have played everything in Chicago , Bob O would not make anyone's top 10 and probably land in the 15-20 level. Great place to act like a frat boy again but not in the same league as Milwaukee.

[Phil McDade]

Jack:

Thoughts on Briarwood? Mungeam's work there is said to be a solid and sympathetic renovation of that Colt-Alison course. How does it compared to MCC?

[PThomas]

Other candidates for the best Colt and Alison course in the US would be the Country Club of Detroit, Bob O'Link, and one of the courses in Cleveland which I haven't seen.  But I think I'd give Milwaukee CC the nod.

.

Tom that course in Cleveland is Kirtland, which imho is as good and very well may be better than Milwaukee

[Mark Saltzman]

Paul, I think the stretch of 4 very ordinary par-4s in the first 5 holes at Kirtland keeps the course from being great. It has been said before and I'll say it again, the back-9 is special, with the exception of getting from 17 to 18. A Doak 6 in my mind.

[J_ Crisham]

Jack:

Thoughts on Briarwood? Mungeam's work there is said to be a solid and sympathetic renovation of that Colt-Alison course. How does it compared to MCC?

Phil, Ironically I was invited to play Briarwood tomorrow with one of our fellow GCAers- I had my days screwed up and did not commit thinking I was at Chicago Golf Club which was in fact this morning- I have not been to Briarwood but my hope is to get that done this season, as everything I have heard from knowledgeable nonmembers is that Briarwood should be top 10 in Chicago. I've heard the green complexes are superb, as I say I need to learn how to figure out my calender on my new iphone! Hope all is well in Wisconsin!

[Steve Salmen]

I played MCC two weeks ago and really enjoyed the course.  My favorite hole was #18.  Don't go long.  #15 played really interesting for my four ball.  The hole was cut far right.  All of us had short irons to wedges to the green.  We all hit the green but all had roughly the same 70 ft putt. 

This is how I would rank my favorite Wisconsin courses:

1. Lawsonia
2. Whistling Straits
3. MCC
4. Blackwolf Run River
5. Irish
6. Blue Mound
7. Erin Hills

[Nigel Islam]

I played MCC two weeks ago and really enjoyed the course.  My favorite hole was #18.  Don't go long.  #15 played really interesting for my four ball.  The hole was cut far right.  All of us had short irons to wedges to the green.  We all hit the green but all had roughly the same 70 ft putt. 

This is how I would rank my favorite Wisconsin courses:

1. Lawsonia
2. Whistling Straits
3. MCC
4. Blackwolf Run River
5. Irish
6. Blue Mound
7. Erin Hills

Steve, my friend and I are playing Lawsonia, Straits, River, Erin Hills next month.  I tried to get us on at either MCC or Blue Mound instead of Erin Hills, but did not meet any success. Are you saying the Irish course is a better option than Erin Hills? I'm just not sure what to expect of Erin. I am however very excited to play Lawsonia.

[Mac Plumart]

Here are a few photos of the course...

Not the ideal approach angle on 10:




Approach to 11:




Approach to 13:

[Phil McDade]

I played MCC two weeks ago and really enjoyed the course.  My favorite hole was #18.  Don't go long.  #15 played really interesting for my four ball.  The hole was cut far right.  All of us had short irons to wedges to the green.  We all hit the green but all had roughly the same 70 ft putt. 

This is how I would rank my favorite Wisconsin courses:

1. Lawsonia
2. Whistling Straits
3. MCC
4. Blackwolf Run River
5. Irish
6. Blue Mound
7. Erin Hills

Steve, my friend and I are playing Lawsonia, Straits, River, Erin Hills next month.  I tried to get us on at either MCC or Blue Mound instead of Erin Hills, but did not meet any success. Are you saying the Irish course is a better option than Erin Hills? I'm just not sure what to expect of Erin. I am however very excited to play Lawsonia.

Nigel:

If the rain holds off for another month (southern Wisconsin has seen a record drought the past two months) I would expect both Lawsonia and esp. Erin Hills to be playing quite fast and firm. Both courses, particularly Erin Hills, are designed to play that way. EHills played really fast and firm at last year's US Amateur, and I came away much more impressed by the course than when I first saw it two years ago after a very wet spring. EHills is full of good holes, although it's a rough walk and the routing can be a bit disconcerting. Still, a  very good course that, if you are in the area, is worth playing.

[Steve Salmen]

NOTICE: Do with this information what you like. I feel an obligation to make it public.

I asked the man in charge if I could take photos of MCC and post them on GCA.  He said I could take photos but not post them on the internet. 

Nigel,

The US Open is going to Erin Hills, you should play it if given the chance.  It's a very good golf course.  Having played both, I chose one over the other, not by a huge margin.  I think all the courses I mentioned are very good.  However, Lawsonia and Whistling are great (IMO).

[Sinclair Eaddy]

I'm partial to North Shore in Chicago. Colt & Allison (1924) and hosted the Western Amateur last year with great reviews.

[Nigel Islam]

Thanks Steve that was the thought process I had originally.