Best mainland U.S. Nicklaus course with no homes on it?

[Phil Benedict]

Collectively, we as a group seem to be struggling in coming up with five courses out of two hundred plus that fit the parameter.

So let’s change the question: why isn’t Nicklaus Design hired for more golf only projects??

There have to be reasons. For instance, the design careers of Nicklaus and Pete Dye  largely overlap and Dye has the four at Kohler, The Golf Club, The Honors Course as Mike Fay points out, etc. – where are the Nicklaus equivalent?

Cheers,

Ran,

Since you are inviting rank speculation, I will take the bait.

Among the architects Jack (and I suppose Arnold) are easily the most recognizable names to the second-home buying public.  If you are a real estate developer who wants to sell houses, Jack's name attached to the golf course is probably a stronger hook for a wide audience of potential home-buyers than Tom Doak or Bill Coore, to name 2. 

Another factor to consider is that a golf course that is part of a real estate development may be able to afford a bigger architect fee than a golf-only situation.  Jack may be pick his projects where the fee is highest.

[Matt_Cohn]

Is it Mayacama (I haven’t seen it so I don’t know)?

Ran,
I don't know the number of homes on Mayacama. There are not very many; but they are there.  And that number will rise as time goes by.  The latest is just off the 10th fairway.  Most of them are quite a way from the course; but the more recent construction is closer by.  Cottages were built, I believe, in year 2.  But they are not obtrusive, mainly concentrated near the clubhouse and the practice area.

The new one on 10 is really obtrusive, not to mention hittable. It's weird. But for now, that's the only home on the course that's really noticeable at all.

[Peter Wagner]

Collectively, we as a group seem to be struggling in coming up with five courses out of two hundred plus that fit the parameter.

So let’s change the question: why isn’t Nicklaus Design hired for more golf only projects??

There have to be reasons. For instance, the design careers of Nicklaus and Pete Dye  largely overlap and Dye has the four at Kohler, The Golf Club, The Honors Course as Mike Fay points out, etc. – where are the Nicklaus equivalent?

Cheers,

Ran,
You are making the very big assumption that Nicklaus Design wants golf only projects when the numbers you show (ND is over 300 courses BTW) indicate otherwise.  Try this little experiment and I think you'll see why I think this way:

Assume you are a very wealthy real estate developer and you are about to develop 2000 acres of raw land into a golf centered neighborhood.  Your goal is to maximize the use of the land so that you can make even more money because you aren't satisfied with being 'very wealthy' and you want to be insanely wealthy.

So you just want to build tons of expensive house and you know that if you stick a golf course in the middle somewhere that you can command 25% more per lot.  Ran, you're an upscale guy and you like to build upscale communities, so who are you going to pick to build this course in the middle of your project?  Before you answer please remember that national averages show that 65% of your future homeowners will NOT be members at your golf club.  They will live on the course but not be members as they don't even care about golf but they like the home value appreciation that golf courses bring.

Let's see... you could pick Jack Nicklaus.  Hmmm, the design fee is kind of steep but you get name recognition for the future members AND non-member home buyers.  (A huge point!)  Additionally, you would be getting a design firm that has done 300+ designs for similar neighborhoods.  Some better than others but that's a lot of experience.  Some of that experience has to do with 'neighborhood routing' of the course.  I just made up that term.  Does the course routing interfere with your goal of maximizing profit or does it help?

So Ran, being the greedy bastard that you are, you pick ND as your partner and poof, 2 years later you are in business selling houses mostly to people who won't play your course.  (Weird huh?)

IMO, Nicklaus Design has learned they have a distinct advantage in residential course design.  Who's better?  Why not use this advantage to the fullest? 

Lastly, ND gets a lot of repeat business by developers and this would indicate that these customers are mostly pleased by the design's impact on the neighborhood and the profits generated.

Best,
Peter

[Peter Pallotta]

Peter W - thanks for that; you paint a very clear picture.

But a sidebar question - If said greedy bastard wants not only to become insanely wealthy but obscenely wealthy, is ANY golf course development the best way to reach his cherished goal? With 2000 acres of raw land available to him, is it a GIVEN that putting a golf course there will draw more potential high-end homeowners than, say, a 200 acre lake and "family-centred recreational facilities" along with an "holistic health and spiritual well-being life-style centre and spa" would draw?

In other words, do you have any sense of whether the golf-course development model is as strong as ever, or if its appeal is waning?

Thanks
Peter

[Tim Bert]

Ran - I think there may be 5 in my home state. I haven't played all 5 Bear Trace courses, but I've played 3 and seen comments on a 4th and I don't recall houses. They are all in State parks. Not all of his best work but they aren't bad. A couple of them are enjoyable rounds though logistically they are a nightmare and don' get any play.

[Paul Saathoff]

Once again.... does anyone know the percentage of golf courses that have NO residential developement.  I'd still like to think that the national average isn't that far off from the Nickalus Design numbers. 

Also good points Phil and Peter... points I elaborated to about 10 posts earlier.  But I'm a newbie what do I know... right?

Nicklaus does a pretty darn good job of hiding them or making sure they are out of play on most of his designs.

Perhaps Jack has more of an influence on developers and is able to persuade them or is more freely able to place the golf where he and his design staff chooses because of his name... just a thought. 
It seems on the projects I've seen develop here in Asia that we have a lot of influence on where residential development will be placed and that mostly the developers go with what we say.  I'm not sure if other designers have such freedom; or perhaps this is simply because of Asia's lack of experience in such projects.     

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Ran,

Why isn’t Nicklaus Design hired for more golf only projects??

One reason might be cost. Why spend a large amount for a name architect when all you're selling is memberships? Even wealthy individual developers might have a limit if they want to develop their own private club. It didn't stop Michael Pascucci at Sebonack or even Warren Stephens from hiring Fazio for Alotian.

 

[Peter Wagner]

Peter W - thanks for that; you paint a very clear picture.

But a sidebar question - If said greedy bastard wants not only to become insanely wealthy but obscenely wealthy, is ANY golf course development the best way to reach his cherished goal? With 2000 acres of raw land available to him, is it a GIVEN that putting a golf course there will draw more potential high-end homeowners than, say, a 200 acre lake and "family-centred recreational facilities" along with an "holistic health and spiritual well-being life-style centre and spa" would draw?

In other words, do you have any sense of whether the golf-course development model is as strong as ever, or if its appeal is waning?

Thanks
Peter

Peter P,
Sure, any developer would do well to step back and assess his or her options as what the center feature of the neighborhood should be.  I have seen some of what you mentioned above first hand and I can say that the holistic health wellness thing is not competitive to golf from a developer standpoint.  Tough to say what the future will bring but a 'wellness neighborhood' is not bringing a premium today.

A small man-made lake is a good call.  I would say if you include an interesting lake design, a couple of restaurants, and a small 'yacht club' then you could have a winner.  An important element of this is to limit boats to 10 hps. or less because your lake will be small and it turns out to be more fun forcing your customers to explore the lake slowly.  I have seen lake communities that command roughly the same premium as golf communities.

Answering your last question is tough.  On the one hand I'm very confident that the demand for golf communities will remain high.  I base this on age demographics mostly which would say we will see continued demand for the next 20-ish years.  On the other hand, we have built a very large number of golf neighborhoods in the last 25 years (1/3 of the total supply).  Will the continued demand be greater than the current supply of golf communities?  I don't know but I would guess yes, but just by a little.

Think about your own community.  If you were a developer are there areas left untapped that would yield cool golf neighborhoods?  Do you think there are customers to buy these new houses?  Is there a pent up demand for more golf holes?

If your answers are sort of marginal yes's then I would suggest building a golf community but with something added to make the new neighborhood stand out.  Maybe you buy more raw land and have both a lake and golf community combined.  Maybe it's a golf & gun club based community.  Golf and something (except tennis which appears to be dead).

Best,
Peter

[Peter Wagner]

Nicklaus does a pretty darn good job of hiding them or making sure they are out of play on most of his designs.

I mostly agree.

Perhaps Jack has more of an influence on developers and is able to persuade them or is more freely able to place the golf where he and his design staff chooses because of his name... just a thought. 
It seems on the projects I've seen develop here in Asia that we have a lot of influence on where residential development will be placed and that mostly the developers go with what we say.  I'm not sure if other designers have such freedom; or perhaps this is simply because of Asia's lack of experience in such projects.     

I think Jack does have considerable influence in working with developers.  ND can, and should, point to their success rate for developers and of course Jack has that little 'best golfer ever' card to play.  Persuasive stuff for a developer on any continent.  I would think Dye and Fazio also have at least the first half of that as well.

- Peter

[astavrides]

Do the Bear's Best courses in Atlanta and Las Vegas have housing?

i dont remember the bear's best in vegas having any homes, but apparently i was wrong about the other 3 i had mentioned in this thread...

if they did have homes, i suppose they would have had to have been based on other homes around his courses.

[Peter Zarlengo]

Peter P & Peter W-
A friend of mine is a residential developer in the SW Denver area.  After some research he determined that the two best alternative for selling houses in the area and making profit were:

1) to use 150 or so acres and get Nicklaus (who doesnt have a public design in the area) to build a "brand name" course

or

2) Use about 2/3 of the land that would have been a golf course for open space and trails

He went with option 2 and the community has sold tremendously.  His rationale was that even if it was a Nicklaus signature course, the last thing that area needed was another golf course community. Demand for a outdoor/recreation based community was higher.

[Peter Wagner]

Astavrides,

Yep, Bear's Best Las Vegas has homes on pretty much every hole.  I played it once a few years ago and I don't remember being bothered by the homes.

Peter Z,

Is your friend's project in the Ken Caryl area?  Sounds like he made the right choice from a developer standpoint.

[Matt_Ward]

I concur with what's been said already for the likes of Dismal River and Outlaw at Desert Mountain. Both are rather unique and the experience in playing there is enhanced greatly through the absence of housing.

[Gary Sato]

This thread is 7 years old but I'll be interested to see if anything has changed?

With what I have played it would be Dismal River.

[John Cowden]

Dismal River must be the hands down winner.  There are no homes in sight, anywhere.


Mayacama, although not as good as DR, would have a lot more homes on those $2M+ lots if the bubble hadn't burst.

[Tom_Doak]

This thread is 7 years old but I'll be interested to see if anything has changed?

It shouldn't have changed too much, since there have been so few courses opened in the U.S.A. over the past seven years.  I'm working on only my third, right now.  I'm not really sure if Nicklaus Design has opened any new courses here in that time frame.

[MCirba]

To me, by far of those I've played would be Sebonack.  Of course, he had some help there. 

[Phil Young]

I'm interested in seeing how Ferry Point will stack up in this discussion.

Mike, considering that Tom Doak was the equal co-designer with Jack on Sebonack, why should it be considered in this discussion?

[Mark Pritchett]

Let’s leave collaborative efforts out.

[MCirba]

Phil/Mark,

Sorry, I missed that little collaborative edit from Ran.   Carry on. 

Re: Trump Ferry Point, my understanding is that most of that golf course is now John Sanford, so that would have to be omitted as well.   Even the original Nicklaus routing changed quite a bit.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm interested in seeing how Ferry Point will stack up in this discussion.

I forgot about Ferry Point.  They had actually started construction on it already before we started working on Sebonack!

[Phil Young]

Mike,

Interesting that the Nicklaus golf website refers to it as a Jack Nicklaus signature design done in collaboration with Sanford while the Trump Golf Links Ferry Point website states that "it has been designed to the absolute highest level standard and quality by the famed Jack Nicklaus."

If I have to choose between you & the Donald I'd also recommend that you consider running for the big office!

I didn't know of Sanford's beyond his being brought in to finish the Nicklaus work or what he actually did.

Good catch!

[Jason Way]

I saw Old Corkscrew mentioned in the original thread.  I believe that there was a development planned around it that never materialized.  Can anyone confirm? 


That being said/asked, OC is one of the more remote feeling courses I have played, given it's proximity to a number of housing developments.

[MClutterbuck]

Peter W - thanks for that; you paint a very clear picture.

But a sidebar question - If said greedy bastard wants not only to become insanely wealthy but obscenely wealthy, is ANY golf course development the best way to reach his cherished goal? With 2000 acres of raw land available to him, is it a GIVEN that putting a golf course there will draw more potential high-end homeowners than, say, a 200 acre lake and "family-centred recreational facilities" along with an "holistic health and spiritual well-being life-style centre and spa" would draw?

In other words, do you have any sense of whether the golf-course development model is as strong as ever, or if its appeal is waning?

Thanks
Peter

Peter P,
Sure, any developer would do well to step back and assess his or her options as what the center feature of the neighborhood should be.  I have seen some of what you mentioned above first hand and I can say that the holistic health wellness thing is not competitive to golf from a developer standpoint.  Tough to say what the future will bring but a 'wellness neighborhood' is not bringing a premium today.

A small man-made lake is a good call.  I would say if you include an interesting lake design, a couple of restaurants, and a small 'yacht club' then you could have a winner.  An important element of this is to limit boats to 10 hps. or less because your lake will be small and it turns out to be more fun forcing your customers to explore the lake slowly.  I have seen lake communities that command roughly the same premium as golf communities.

Answering your last question is tough.  On the one hand I'm very confident that the demand for golf communities will remain high.  I base this on age demographics mostly which would say we will see continued demand for the next 20-ish years.  On the other hand, we have built a very large number of golf neighborhoods in the last 25 years (1/3 of the total supply).  Will the continued demand be greater than the current supply of golf communities?  I don't know but I would guess yes, but just by a little.

Think about your own community.  If you were a developer are there areas left untapped that would yield cool golf neighborhoods?  Do you think there are customers to buy these new houses?  Is there a pent up demand for more golf holes?

If your answers are sort of marginal yes's then I would suggest building a golf community but with something added to make the new neighborhood stand out.  Maybe you buy more raw land and have both a lake and golf community combined.  Maybe it's a golf & gun club based community.  Golf and something (except tennis which appears to be dead).

Best,
Peter

1. As soon as you contact Nicklaus Design, you are sent out an paper by an economist showing developments with a Nicklaus course have, on average, homes that are more expensive than in developments with other architects. I believe the document also showed how Nicklaus design translates to more success for a developer.


2. My home course was designed by Nicklaus in a development planned for 36 holes. The first phase was 18 holes, the club house sized for the 2 courses, and 2 types of home sites: a. On the golf course and, b. On a huge man made lake. Guess what sold faster and at higher prices? The lake views. The developer changed first to 27 holes and then abandoned entirley the second course even though he had paid part of Nicklaus´ fees for the 2nd course. I heard from the developer: "I can build a hole and fill it with water at a fraction of the price of a golf courase and sell the lots for a lote more".

[Mark Pritchett]

Spring Creek Ranch