[Ran Morrissett]

This topic came up in a round about way Sunday after golf at the mighty Royal & Ancient Southern Pines CC which is house-free except for one  three hundred yard stretch.

The gist was home sales have driven ALL golf course construction in the United States since World War II. I said no that’s not true as we have various private clubs and/or resort courses by Coore & Crenshaw, Tom Doak and Pete Dye to the contrary. I was then asked about Jack Nicklaus: what’s his best resort or private club with no homes on it? Is it Mayacama (I haven’t seen it so I don’t know)? Dismal River (which again I haven’t seen to be able to comment)?

The question interests me not so much for the sake of the answer of what singular course is the finest but rather what I perceive to be a lack of a quantity of such courses. I suppose Nicklaus Design has done north of 200 courses in the U.S. – what percent do you think fall in this category (mainland U.S. courses with no homes on it)? Is it under 10%? 5%? What is to be made of that?

Let’s leave collaborative efforts out.

Cheers,

[mike_beene]

Just trying to think of a few.Breckenridge,which is owned by the town I believe.Does Valhalla have houses?

[Chip Gaskins]

I have played a handful of Nicklaus courses and Mayacama by far is my favorite of his.

I suspect he has a few good ones in the low country of SC, but I haven't played them.

Mayacama is a pretty special place though.

[Joel_Stewart]

I would think Dismal River.  Lets hope he has something better than Mayacama.

[Brett Morris]

I like Shoal Creek.  There are several homes in the woods, however these do not front the course.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Desert Mountain Outlaw is a good candidate. Across the road from the 5 residential courses at DM.

[John Mayhugh]

Just trying to think of a few.Breckenridge,which is owned by the town I believe.Does Valhalla have houses?

Unless things have changed over the last year or so, no houses on the course at Valhalla.

[Paul Saathoff]

I'm not sure what the actual percentage of Nicklaus courses in the U.S with no real estate would be, but what exactly is the percentage of ALL golf courses in the U.S without real estate?  I might be wrong, but I'd like to think the two numbers are somewhat close.

Nicklaus Design does get its fair share of work tied to residential developement and I'm not sure "what is to be made of that" other than the fact that Jack Nickalus is a universally known name, known outside the golfing world (How many people buying in golf communites actually play the game).  Joe Public probably has never heard of Tom Doak, Kidd, or Coore and Crenshaw (ok maybe crenshaw).  The Nicklaus name is a greater marketing tool for developers looking to sell high end homes, so naturally these kinds of clients are drawn to the company.

[David Stamm]

Does May River have houses on it?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

May River has homesites on the course. I doubt that there are many actual houses there now:

"Along the fringes of the Jack Nicklaus Signature Golf Course, 240 homesites, ranging in size from one-half acre to eight acres, offer a variety of spectacular views. Some properties overlook the golf course while others gaze out across the May River. Maritime forest, trails, salt marshes and inland lakes are all part of the dramatic landscape. May River Forest homes will connect to Wilson Village and other neighborhoods through the trail system."

The above from the website.

[John Sheehan]

Is it Mayacama (I haven’t seen it so I don’t know)?

Ran,
I don't know the number of homes on Mayacama. There are not very many; but they are there.  And that number will rise as time goes by.  The latest is just off the 10th fairway.  Most of them are quite a way from the course; but the more recent construction is closer by.  Cottages were built, I believe, in year 2.  But they are not obtrusive, mainly concentrated near the clubhouse and the practice area.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think The Concession only has homes on one small part or side and well back from course. Sebonack only has the cottages if memory serves me correctly.  I also like Mayacama and obviously better than Joel. lol All three are top level Jack designs and home freeish.

[astavrides]

I havent played any of the private ones mentioned above.  Ocean Hammock, Reflection Bay, and Greenbriar don't have homes on them as far as I know--although Reflection Bay certainly has a lot of homes associated with it. 

[Will E]

Old Corkscrew

[Andy Troeger]

Ocean Hammock definitely has homes on it now...I hit one of them 

[Tim Gavrich]

Reflection Bay resort course has homes on it.  The Greenbrier does not have any home sites on the course (although Old White and the New Snead Course at the Greenbrier Sporting Club do).  Another Nicklaus course I have played without homesite is Rocky Gap in Maryland (although I think it is an average course at best and does have Interstate 68 beside it which is just as bad as homesites....)

All the other Nicklaus courses I have played have homes/residential property on them.  But I would also say there are varying degrees of this.  I would put it in two categories.  One where the homes are set off from the course or the homes are nice enogh that it does not distract from the round and then ones where the homes dominate the surrounding and seem intrusive....

Just like l would say that courses without homesites, etc. can fall into ranges anywhere from extraordinary (Bandon) to just trees/forest without much appeal (although still better than homesites)

There are homes along holes 2, 3, 10, and 13 at the Greenbrier now.

[Andy Troeger]

With all this said about houses, and with mention that I generally hate houses on golf courses although it can be argued they are often a necessary evil, Nicklaus does a pretty darn good job of hiding them or making sure they are out of play on most of his designs.

Even the one I hit wasn't THAT close to play. It was an awful swing on my part.

Castle Pines they tend to be hidden in the forest when they are there, and most holes especially on the back nine I don't recall even seeing houses. Desert Highlands and Sycamore Hills definitely have more homes, but they are pushed back pretty well and often blocked by trees or desert brush. They are more noticable I think at Sycamore Hills than the other two.

I do think the Bear Trace at Cumberland Mountain is a very fine golf course; its in a state park with no homesites. Its a shame that those courses have not fared better financially as that one at least is very much worth playing.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Do the Bear's Best courses in Atlanta and Las Vegas have housing?

[Brandon Skopelja]

Concession is pretty amazing. They have one tee where Jack and Tonys lots are about 250 yds away. Thats the closest lots to be on the course.
 I have heard really good things about Dismal, but havent played it.

[Russ Miller]

Not sure it would rank as the best but Richland Country Club in Nashville is a private Nicklaus course with basically no homes on it.  There are a few that sit on top of a hill at the very end of the driving range, but I believe that's it.  Very hilly course that is difficult to walk.  If I'm not mistaken the course was built in the '80's after the club sold its Ross course to a housing developer for a pretty good amount and moved the club to the edge of Nashville with a new Nicklaus course, essentially built on the side of a mountain.  So in a way I guess you could say that home sales did drive the construction of this course even though there are no houses on it

[Chuck Brown]

May River is of course entirely and elaborately planned; yet there are almost no homes "on" the golf course that I can recall.  In comparison to the rest of the development (which is truly beautiful in my opinion), the feeling is quite isolated.

We all know of developments where the home-siting dominated the golf course routing and ruined it.  There's no better example in the world that I can think of than Wabeek Country Club, a very early Pete Dye & Jack Nicklaus design from the early 1970's, built on a magnificent bit of hilly old farmstead once owned by the James Couzens family north of Detroit in Bloomfield Hills.  The developer was Chrysler Realty which fell on hard times with the first oil shock of that era, and real estate sales took over the project.  The land is very nice, and the resulting course is quite awful.  I'm quite sure that Nicklaus and Dye would both like to disown it now, 30+ years later.

But home sites do not automatically make for a bad course.  The two Donald Ross courses of the Detroit Golf Club contained home sites, surrounding the courses on three sides.  Indeed, ANGC was originally laid out with home sites, right?  It would be hard to say that Muirfield Village is compromised by its home sites, right?  St. George's Hill in Surrey?

I have not seen the Bear's Club north of West Palm Beach; is there an integral real estate development?  Are there any Mexican Nicklaus entries in this sweepstakes?  I have also never had the pleasure of playing Colleton River, where I know there are some homesites, but not too may, right?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Nothing to do with US Mainland, but the three Nicklaus courses I know in England are exceedingly rural: Carden Park has no housing at all, although the sprawl of the hotel feels like a city in itself, but the course is right away from it all; The London Club has one Nicklaus signature course and a Nicklaus company course with not a single house anywhere; there are a few houses lining the early holes at St Mellion, but they are high up above the fairways and, therefore, largely out of sight. The rest of the course is way out in the country. The only trouble is that I don't think they are great courses, St Mellion getting my vote if I had to on account of its topographical advantages.

[michael j fay]

The Concession Club is my pick. It is a collaboration with Tony Jacklin but the course is mostly Nicklaus Design. It is the best set of greens I have seen by the Nicklaus Company and the bunkering is really quite clever. I believe the long-term plan is to have no homesites on the course.

There are damn few old golf courses that have no abutting housing. Most are in residential neighborhoods of one sort or another. There are a few like NGLA and Shinnecock that have no housing at all. Fishers Island has a few close residences, there is a whole newer development that front numerous holes on the #2 course, even vaunted Maidstone has a few homesites abutting (although in the eight figure price range).

Palma Ceia in Tampa is literally encased by the homes that surround it and to my knowledge the only part of the club that can be seen from the road is the Clubhouse.

The only near housing at Newport CC are the nuisance houses off to the left of number four green. Unfortunately a couple of the homes there are among the worst architecturally in Newport.

The Honors Course is another that has avoided housing mainly due to Jack Lupton buying all the adjoining land.

[Ran Morrissett]

Collectively, we as a group seem to be struggling in coming up with five courses out of two hundred plus that fit the parameter.

So let’s change the question: why isn’t Nicklaus Design hired for more golf only projects??

There have to be reasons. For instance, the design careers of Nicklaus and Pete Dye  largely overlap and Dye has the four at Kohler, The Golf Club, The Honors Course as Mike Fay points out, etc. – where are the Nicklaus equivalent?

Cheers,

[wsmorrison]

Michael Fay,

Shinnecock has some houses around it.  There's a house overlooking the driving range as well as a fairly modern development near the 12th tee and down the hill along the right side of the 15th fairway.

Having two golf courses on either side (NGLA to the west and Southampton to the east) helps isolate the course from housing.

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