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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Wilson, his committee and others could do it, why can't we ?
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2008, 11:44:13 AM »
But, as Merion demonstrates, the original architect can die a few years after the course opens (all will die sometime) and needs and better ideas still continue to evolve regardless. 

Would this group be chastising Flynn for changing Merion if it happened today?  Or is it just an example of human nature that change brings reaction, which gets muted over time?



True, but Wilson was just building his version of what CBM had designed so Flynn was just tinkering with the original tinkering. ;D ;D  (Sorry Tom and Wayne, I couldnt resist)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Wilson, his committee and others could do it, why can't we ?
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2008, 12:16:01 PM »
I find it quite interesting how Peter P., comes from his background as a writer, and finds insight into subjects like this.   With all the nails he hits on their heads, I don't know if he is a carpenter as well as a writer, but he has the insight of the artist concerning his understanding of process. 

As for this thread, it seems like Pat Mucci set a ball on a tee, challenged TomP to hit it, he took a mighty swing,  while Pat knew Moriarity was in the outfield waiting to catch the pop fly for an out.  ::) ;D

Yet, on the question, I also like what Rich Farnsworth... had to say.  Except I also wonder really how many less known or unhearlded committee projects would actually measure up to Merion.  It seems to me that any similar committee, one shot efforts, would by virtue of greatness, become known, no matter who designed or oversighted the project, committee, one trick archie/designer, or known archie.

Bottom line for me is if the land were great and the regulation were little, and the previous knowledge of golf via playing other great courses were high, a committee (such as one could form from any number of regular GCA.com posters) could lay-out and bring in a wonderful course that could and would undergo proper evolution if it were under the stewartship of intelligent on-going greenstaff and committees.   Yes, with all those caveats, top 100!  ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Wilson, his committee and others could do it, why can't we ?
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2008, 12:26:37 PM »
But, as Merion demonstrates, the original architect can die a few years after the course opens (all will die sometime) and needs and better ideas still continue to evolve regardless. 

Would this group be chastising Flynn for changing Merion if it happened today?  Or is it just an example of human nature that change brings reaction, which gets muted over time?



True, but Wilson was just building his version of what CBM had designed so Flynn was just tinkering with the original tinkering. ;D ;D  (Sorry Tom and Wayne, I couldnt resist)

JC,

I know you are kidding but "original intent" for a committee designed golf course will open up a whole bag o worms.  If the committee head dies, then the rest on the committee would probably rush to build their ideas that didn't get in the course.  And, its harder to say what original intent really was because there aren't any other comparitive courses with a one design committee course to reference like there would be with Ross, etc.

That said, I am shuddering to think how someone in the future might interpret what I did at one place as signifigant to what I did at the other.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Wilson, his committee and others could do it, why can't we ?
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2008, 12:57:29 PM »
But, as Merion demonstrates, the original architect can die a few years after the course opens (all will die sometime) and needs and better ideas still continue to evolve regardless. 

Would this group be chastising Flynn for changing Merion if it happened today?  Or is it just an example of human nature that change brings reaction, which gets muted over time?



True, but Wilson was just building his version of what CBM had designed so Flynn was just tinkering with the original tinkering. ;D ;D  (Sorry Tom and Wayne, I couldnt resist)

JC,

I know you are kidding but "original intent" for a committee designed golf course will open up a whole bag o worms.  If the committee head dies, then the rest on the committee would probably rush to build their ideas that didn't get in the course.  And, its harder to say what original intent really was because there aren't any other comparitive courses with a one design committee course to reference like there would be with Ross, etc.

That said, I am shuddering to think how someone in the future might interpret what I did at one place as signifigant to what I did at the other.

Im with you Jeff.  I dont know what the right answer is and I struggle with what my opinions are.  I guess I support a guy like Doak, who is learned in the good Dr., restoring a place like Pasa and I am less supportive of "renovations." 

But I clearly see the benefit of an archie being able to tweak his work after the fact.  I guess the solution is for all of you archies to keep adequate records and copious notes on every project so that we dont have any ambiguity in the future.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Wilson, his committee and others could do it, why can't we ?
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2008, 01:17:07 PM »
JC, the notion of keeping adequate field notes is well taken.  Jeff does a lot of writing for various golf pubs.  And with blogs, like Ian, Nuzz, and others have, there is a better likelihood that their vision, original intents, and tendancies for design features and strategies will be better understood by future generations, and potential 'remodellers/restorers'. 

If only we had the Internet bakc in the day, this whole Merion thing would have been completely a no-brainer to understand whose influence, work, and visions were utilized to the greatest degree.  ;) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: If Wilson, his committee and others could do it, why can't we ?
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2008, 03:19:46 PM »
RJ:  Like Sebonack?  There's a whole book about that, and yet it only tells maybe half the story of what went on.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Wilson, his committee and others could do it, why can't we ?
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2008, 03:49:17 PM »
RJ:  Like Sebonack?  There's a whole book about that, and yet it only tells maybe half the story of what went on.

Someone should write a book about the building of PacDunes, that would be a great read and someday, a great reference... ;) ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: If Wilson, his committee and others could do it, why can't we ?
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2008, 09:53:17 PM »
Kelly Blake Moran,

From the time I participated on this site I've alluded to wonderful courses and clubs that are the product of a dedicated visionary.

Those individuals that are involved in the creation, design, construction and running of the club over a long period of time invest more than their money, they invest their heart and soul, often creating a legacy that will outlive them by decades or centuries.

Four important elements are necessary to succeed

A love of the entity/golf.
Knowledge/wisdom
Time
A good/great site

With those components it's hard not to succeed.

Wayno,

You'd be surprised by the results I could achieve, even with TEPaul on my staff ;D

TEPaul

Re: If Wilson, his committee and others could do it, why can't we ?
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2008, 10:03:44 PM »
"Wayno,
You'd be surprised by the results I could achieve, even with TEPaul on my staff."


I'd work with you, Pat, but it would pretty much have to be our usual Master/student relationship and you know how that's always worked---eg I supply you with all the ideas and concepts and even if in a week or less you try to pass them off as your own---hey, that's Jake with me and that's a lot of what a good master is about---to imbue something in his subject in such a way where the subject actually thinks its his own and he takes possession of it. ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: If Wilson, his committee and others could do it, why can't we ?
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2008, 10:09:39 PM »
TEPaul,

Is that what MacDonald did with Wilson at Merion ?  ;D   ;D   ;D   ;D   ;D   ;D

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Wilson, his committee and others could do it, why can't we ?
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2008, 02:06:07 PM »
Quote
RJ:  Like Sebonack?  There's a whole book about that, and yet it only tells maybe half the story of what went on.

Tom Doak, that is an interesting comment.  You take a great deal of personal time to write here on GCA.com, not only telling us of your thoughts and visions on your projects, but sometimes alluding to ideas on other courses and other works by other architects.  While I think that is a good thing, actually much appreciated, it also causes me to wonder what exactly you mean by the above statement.  Are you saying that there is maybe half the story better left 'untold'.  Or, are you not happy with the book ( I don't know of it so haven't read it).  Is the book lacking something you should add now about the vision and intentions of the design of the course there at Sebonack?

What I'm saying above is that I think it is a better situation with the advent of blogs that archies can create for themselves to express themselves, or participate on forums like here on GCA.com, to have a record of what you archies really think and see as your goals and intentions.  I think that can only help future generations that have to remodel or restore you works due to the myriad of potential terrain altering and man induced altering of the works all of you archies have created now.  Committees can only do so much, even when honestly or ethically motivated to maintaining the vision.  Leaving behind a record of words and descriptions is invaluable, and so anything you guys write in that regard is important. 

Now, if only the sensitivities of the owners/developers and co-designers can be worked out for you to tell us the "other half" that may have been left out...  ::) ;) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Wilson, his committee and others could do it, why can't we ?
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2008, 02:31:33 PM »
Kind of begs the question: Can anyone afford to tell their full side of any story in public?  The only way this ever really happens is when ones memoirs are released after death.  A good relationship is far more valuable than the public recognition for being right or placing blame. Discretion is still the better part of valor.  It is not as exciting, but in the end, the players all know what really took place and that is enough.
Jim Thompson

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Wilson, his committee and others could do it, why can't we ?
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2008, 08:52:31 PM »
Or, if you live in the pop culture, you can write your book and tell your side of the story of who you were boinking back in the day, like Babbwa Wawa...

Perhaps it is better that in golf, those older instincts of discretion and valor and sportsmanship and trusting the field to know the real thing, like Big Jim says, is what really separates the golf arena from the tell-all gossip society. 

But, that isn't to say that there isn't a fine line or merit to archies who achieve greatness in their time, at some point setting straight misconcpetions that may have begun to circulate through pop legend and lore.  Lord knows there is enough of 'we' here on GCA ascribing certain legends and lore to many of the courses that we love, concerning all the intitial dealings, and who did what, what the archie intended, what the developer wanted, who was responsible for things that will endure after the principles are gone. 

Take Sand Hills for example.  We talk about it incessantly.  We sort of project ourselves into the mistique and comment as if we knew the real origins of various aspects of that courses inception, and design/construction.  Here we are only about 12 years down the pike and probably half the notions we ascribe to the founding, intentions, and design methods and philosphies are becoming legend and lore, and not necessarily the facts as only an actual hand full of those principles know it. 

But, it is fun for us to imagine, and that is what keeps us typing, I guess...  ::) ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Cirba

Re: If Wilson, his committee and others could do it, why can't we ?
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2008, 08:57:10 PM »
Patrick,

Sometimes, a group comes together and Magic happens.

It happened in Liverpool, when four guys named Lennon, McCartney, Starr, and Harrison pooled forces.

One can also name many sports teams who joined together to become greater as a unit than the sum of their parts.

It evidently also happened in Ardmore, PA in 1911, but it took some time and some additions to the team like Flynn and Valentine.

But, if you, Tom Paul, Tommy Nac, and Ran, even supplemented with an assist from David Moriarty and Tom MacWood decided to design a course...

there is no way in hell it would ever get completed.  ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: If Wilson, his committee and others could do it, why can't we ?
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2008, 09:08:36 PM »
Patrick,

Sometimes, a group comes together and Magic happens.

It happened in Liverpool, when four guys named Lennon, McCartney, Starr, and Harrison pooled forces.

Mike, that's another absurd analogy, something that you've become proficient at manufacturing. ;D.

All four of the Beatles were accomplished musicians when they pooled forces.

Not one of the committee members was an accomplished architect when they pooled forces.

There is a qualitative and quantitative difference.
Surely you see it, but continue to want to obfuscate it.
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One can also name many sports teams who joined together to become greater as a unit than the sum of their parts.

That's because they were already very accomplished in their field before joining together.

That didn't exist with Merion's committee.
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It evidently also happened in Ardmore, PA in 1911, but it took some time and some additions to the team like Flynn and Valentine.

I'd disagree with that as well.

The genius of Merion is the routing, the Macro architecture.
The Micro architecture might be the icing on the cake...... at best.
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But, if you, Tom Paul, Tommy Nac, and Ran, even supplemented with an assist from David Moriarty and Tom MacWood decided to design a course...

there is no way in hell it would ever get completed.  ;)

I have every confidence that it would be completed in a timely fashion.
Especially if we're able to employ the services of a world reknowned consulting architect or three.
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