Just how good is Bandon Dunes ?

[John Kavanaugh]

Nobody goes to Pinehurst and plays them all.  On my one trip I just played #2 twice despite having free rounds available at #7.  I see Bandon Trails being left out of the mix because of its difficulty to walk and lack of exposure to the other courses and ocean.  I predict 2011 will be the start of the staggered price structure that will motivate people to spread out their play or not repeat a popular course because of cost.  My 2011 prime time price structure prediction is..

Pacific Dunes - $325 with $200 replay
Bandon Dunes - $325 with $150 replay
Olde Macdonald - $250 with $100 replay
Bandon Trails - $150 with $50 replay

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

I think in my case, that would be the way to go because I've only played PD.  And its killing me that I really can't participate in a better way on all these threads about Bandon. Certainly, if I were in your shoes I might think differently. 

With all that in mind, sounds like a minimum stay should be 4 days.  That would allow for a 3+2+2+1 kind of scenario at the very least.  So what the hell if you have 4 days of golf, and another day for travel, then whats another day or two to make it a week right? I know life has brow beat you a bit, but you gotta get back on that horse and dare to dream big again....

The Audacity of Hope right?   

[Tom Huckaby]

You know JK, you may be right.  That makes a lot of sense.

And Kalen, Mr. Keiser is banking on your assessment being what occurs.  My reality remains a bit too constrained for that, however.  I'm not sure I'd want to sell my entire soul for this, as I do have other things to do.  But in a more perfect world, hell yes, sign me up!

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Tim P:

Try to keep this in mind -- the sheer bulk of the push that the original course gets is because of its location and the fact that you have roughly, IMHO, six holes of note. The rest comes from being in such a stellar location with the turbulent Pacific in the mix and the spectacular Orean coast to throw in as well.

The original 18 at Bandon is devoid of anything remotely called interesting green contours, shapes or dimensions. They are end results with little real meaning or definition. Ditto the areas just off the greens in terms of chips and pitches you might need to play when missing the greens.

Tim, c'mon, I never said to put in "wildly, sloping greens." I did say that a bit more detailing would have been a real plus to work in tandem with the wonderful landscape.

One small correction -- I am not infatuated with heavily sloped greens -- I am a big fan of Bethpage Black and a number of other courses where the green dimensions are a bit more subdued. At Bethpage Black I can thoroughly understand it (although no less than six holes there have some real neat sites) given the sheer demands of the tee-to-green element when playing there.

The issue I have with the original 18 at Bandon is not that it's a good golf course -- I never said it wasn't -- I just don't see how people have elevated it to the point in being with the extreme elite of public golf in the USA. Anyone thinking that Bandon Dunes is within a hair breath of the totality of the design you see with Pac Dunes (they are often rated verynear to each other) needs to really step back and examine things a bit more closely.

I stand by what I said previously -- the opening of Pac Dunes has allowed spillover play to maintain the overall standing of the original 18.   

What's interesting is how the brand name of BANDON DUNES has allowed all the courses there to be grouped as a single force and often times the raters themselves have had difficulty in separating the hype from the legitimate elements that are indeed present.

 To my knowledge, there aren't many wild greens on Scottish links (with some exceptions like at North Berwick).  The courses you mentioned--Black Mesa and Greywalls--are known for some crazy greens, aren't they?  Come to think of it, your man Jim Engh creates a lot of wild greens too.  Perhaps that's a trait you overvalue? 

[Tom Huckaby]

I stand by what I said previously -- the opening of Pac Dunes has allowed spillover play to maintain the overall standing of the original 18.   

But Matt, this makes absolutely no sense.  Bandon Dunes course has gone DOWN in "overall standing."  You get that, right?

As for whether it ought to be in the extreme elite, heck you yourself said (a) that it should be in second fifty, or whatever; and (b) that none of this really matters as it's just very small decimal points.

Rather contradicting yourself, aren't you?  First you say it doesn't belong among the elite, then you say there's so little difference in the rankings that such don't matter....

Hey, it's no big deal.  You think Bandon Dunes should be ranked as you say.  Others believe (including me) it ought to be a little higher.  I think you're right in the one statement that there's very little difference as one goes through the rankings.  So it's just a difference of opinion in the end....

Right?

One more thing... you say:

The original 18 at Bandon is devoid of anything remotely called interesting green contours, shapes or dimensions. They are end results with little real meaning or definition. Ditto the areas just off the greens in terms of chips and pitches you might need to play when missing the greens.

Do you really believe this?  Wow, I couldn't disagree more.  I found plenty of interest in the greens thre and in terms of chips and pitches, well...I guess a Scot who routinely plays pitches off tight tight turf over and around deep stacked-sod bunkers might find Bandon to be routine, but good lord does that not describe nearly all Americans.  I could chip and pitch all day at Bandon and never get bored... Little meaning and distinction?  Seriously?  Wow you have REALLY lost me this time.



TH

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

I already explained the issue of the course's standing in a previous thread.

I don't see Bandon Dunes as one of the very elite public courses in the USA - Golfweek has it 6th in the USA for modern, Digest has it at #31. When I said second fifty consideration that was just off the top of my head. If I spent any serious time I would have to weigh the virtues of other top flight candidates to come up with a definitive list.

I have never said the course was horrible -- I simply stated, AGAIN FOR THE UPTEEEENTH TIME, that it doesn't sniff the shoes of Pac Dunes and has been able to hold its position because of the drive to see Pac Dunes which has caused spillover play that takes place when people go there.

Please don't put words in my mouth -- I view ratings with a good bit more skepticism than most. I certainly can see the fanfare tied to Pac Dunes but the BRAND NAME of Bandon Dunes has somehow elevated all the courses that are there even though I see major downside to the original 18 and the effort by C&C at the Trails.

If for nothing else -- that's a compliment to Mike Keiser and what he has achieved to date.

p.s. I still see the green sites at the original 18 as being vanilla when compared to the sheer details that you get from Doak and C&C.

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:

I put no words in your mouth; I only paraphrased what you have stated in this thread.

And when you say:

I simply stated, AGAIN FOR THE UPTEEEENTH TIME, that it doesn't sniff the shoes of Pac Dunes and has been able to hold its position because of the drive to see Pac Dunes which has caused spillover play that takes place when people go there.

I say AGAIN FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME that that makes no sense, because it hasn't held its position - said position has gone DOWN.  Now it's a separate question as to whether the course might have gone down even farther if not for this "spillover" effect you see; but you haven't queried about that.  I'll assume you believe that's the case.  Obviously I disagree.  But the main thing is you keep giving reasons for something that HAS NOT OCCURRED.  Bandon Dunes course has NOT maintained its position - said position has decreased over time.

Again I have complete disagreement with the statement "it doesn't sniff the shoes of Pac Dunes"; a) because it's hard for me to imagine golf courses sniffing shoes; and b) because I find BD to be a very great course, oh perhaps slightly lesser than Pacific Dunes, but only slightly.

Many agree with this, many agree with you, many even find Bandon to be superior.  These are all opinions, and it's all just fine.

As for the green sites, you see them as vanilla compared to PD and BT, and I say perhaps you're right.  But I'd also say that again is no knock on BD, because the green sites work VERY well on that course, and more "details" would to me seem wholly out of place.  But whatever, we've also covered this UMPTEEN times.

 

[Tim Bert]

I love this topic and the emotions it brings out. I also enjoy the diversity of opinion on how to split rounds.  What I can't wait for is banter when Old Mac opens.  How will you split 12 rounds?  That will be fun!

It is good stuff, and a heck of a testament for the resort as a whole.  What a collection of great golf courses....

And while some will then want to discuss a split of 10, or 12... well... the real question is more this, I think:  You have two days there - which courses do you play, how, and when?

Of course a minimum of three days would be required to "get" the resort... but at those prices, well....

The questions will be interesting for sure.

 

I've been three times.

1st time, two full days -

2.75 rounds at Pacific Dunes on day 1.
3 rounds at Bandon Dunes on day 2.
BT did not exist.
Great introduction to the resort

2nd time, 3 full days -
Arrival evening at Sheep Ranch
4 rounds at Pacific (we played 54 two days and used both bonus rounds at PD)
2 Rounds at Bandon Dunes
2 Rounds at Bandon Trails

3rd time, 3 full days -
Arrival evening at Shorty's
4 Rounds at Pacific Dunes (We only played 54 once on this trip)
2 Rounds at Bandon Dunes
1 Round at Bandon Trails

What my 4th time will probably look like, 3 full days -
Arrival evening at Bandon Crossings
3 Rounds at Pacific Dunes
2 Rounds at OMD
1 Round at Bandon Dunes
1 Round at Bandon Trails
One evening that we only play 36 at Shorty's

[Tim Pitner]

Tim, c'mon, I never said to put in "wildly, sloping greens." I did say that a bit more detailing would have been a real plus to work in tandem with the wonderful landscape.

That's true, you didn't, but I took the liberty of reading between the lines.  The Bandon Dunes greens are more subdued than Black Mesa (from what I hear) and I inferred from your comments that you regard that as a negative. 

I can think of several holes at Bandon that have interesting greens and surroundings--Nos. 1, 5, 7, 8, 13 and 17, for example.  Then, you have holes like 11 and 12 that feature greenside collection bunkers that you have to account for if pitching from off the green.  There's some good stuff there. 

[Joe Bentham]

The original 18 at Bandon is devoid of anything remotely called interesting green contours, shapes or dimensions. They are end results with little real meaning or definition. Ditto the areas just off the greens in terms of chips and pitches you might need to play when missing the greens.

Laugh out loud funny to me.

[Tim Pitner]

I was perusing the profiles on this site of the Bandon courses and have this question:  did Ran get up on the wrong side of the bed the day he (I assume it was Ran) wrote the profile of Bandon Dunes?  Known for accentuating the positive, I defy one to find a more negative review on this site than that of BD.  He makes some interesting points, but it's the tenor of the piece that I find to be a departure. 

BTW, what does this esteemed body think of the turf in the greenside bunker on Bandon Trails #3?  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/bandontrails1.html 

I think I'm strongly against it on both playability and aesthetic grounds.