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Matthew Mollica

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Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« on: May 18, 2008, 05:26:55 AM »
"America after Ben Hogan became convinced golf was a straight hitting contest where you were told where to hit - as opposed to giving players space to play with some freedom and having them decide for themselves where best to aim"

Looking forward to the nominations...

Matthew
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

JESII

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2008, 07:38:49 AM »
Cold guesses: Gil Hanse or Ben Crenshaw.

Yes it is fair, especially if we include RTJ Sr. and his overlap with Hogan at Oakland Hills in 1951(?).

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Tim Bert

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2008, 09:59:57 AM »
Jack Nicklaus
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2008, 10:50:58 AM »
Where would Oakland Hills, RTJ and the USGA fit into the "straight hitting" idea? Someone had to make the course that made it possible for Hogan to win a straight hitting derby.
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JESII

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2008, 11:49:00 AM »
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on May 18, 2008, 10:50:58 AM
Where would Oakland Hills, RTJ and the USGA fit into the "straight hitting" idea? Someone had to make the course that made it possible for Hogan to win a straight hitting derby.


Jeff,

I am assuming that was a question to me wondering why I did not mention Ross...and my answer is because of all the writing on that Open, everything focuses on the changes RTJ made to the course to create a "monster" that required single file procesion down the fairways.

There is hyperbole in all of this, but that seems the first time narrow fairways were marketed as "better"...but I could be wrong on that.
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David Stamm

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2008, 05:51:23 PM »
Is the quote HWW?
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Matthew Mollica

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2008, 05:53:21 PM »
Some good guesses but noone's got it yet. The comment was made during reference to golf course set-up. Hint - the author is not American.

Keep 'em coming.

MM
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Bob Jenkins

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2008, 05:54:48 PM »

Ben Wright
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John Sheehan

Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2008, 07:10:13 PM »
Peter Aliss?
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Chris Kane

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2008, 10:04:54 PM »
Mike Clayton?
Geoff Ogilvy?
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2008, 01:24:35 AM »
My guess is Peter Thomson.  He'd be the one most likely to reference Hogan.
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Mark_F

Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2008, 02:52:38 AM »
Matt,

Your favourite architect, Mike Wolveridge.
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Matthew Mollica

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2008, 05:34:32 AM »
Great guesses one and all. I especially liked yours Mark!

Chris Kane, who is fast developing a reputation as a party-pooper of grand proportions, is once again correct. Chris, you're now banned from the next such thread I generate!

It was Mike Clayton.

The comment was made during an online discussion of Merion in which pictures of the course were presented, with fairway bunkers residing well within the lines of rough, and away from the fairways themselves.

Personally, I like the quote, and agree with it, but am always concerned that my feelings on American golf are excessively of this persuasion. Perhaps I'm justified?

Matthew
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Chris Kane

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2008, 07:05:20 AM »
Matt, before anyone had replied to your question, I texted you asking if it was Clayts.  As you chose not to respond, I was left with no choice but to ruin the party!!
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ed_getka

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2008, 03:29:06 PM »
Matthew,
     I wouldn't generalize to say that most American courses are that way. There was certainly time where that was in vogue, but I think we have moved past that stage, as evidenced by the number of well-regarded courses that are clearing trees and reintroducing some width.
     James Bennett and David Elvins should certainly be able to provide some useful information, as well as Mike Clayton of course.
     I hope all is well with you and the family.
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Mike_Clayton

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2008, 05:12:15 PM »
Some very flattering 'wrong' answers here!!

As with almost everything in America it is a big mistake to generalize.
Hogan was such a reverred figure it is hardly surprising people organizing courses decided he was the model golfer and courses should reflect the strengths of his game.
Sand Hills is an obvious example of the opposite and there are no doubt many others.

But there is no question the tour is obsessed with fairway widths as is the US Open and they cannot but have a significant effect on the mentality of golfers and committees.
One US tour official said to me ' How can you possibly give these guys a fairway 40 yards wide'

There is an obvious mentality aimed at penalizing the crooked drive with a bad lie in long grass but if I was to generalize about the best courses in Australia a crooked drive - something missing a 30 yard wide fairway by 5 yards either side - is more likely to be penalize by a bad angle into a difficult green.

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Tom_Doak

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2008, 05:14:26 PM »
Yes Mike, I am happy to be the first guy to mistake you for Peter Thomson!
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Mike_Clayton

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2008, 05:23:46 PM »
Tom,

I am sure he is not - but I just found a book he co-wrote in 1968 about that year on tour and he said that of the 1951 Open
 'Jones made the fairways bottleneck off the tee at about 240 yard range, sometimes to a width of 30 yards.The effect of this was shocking.Hogan finally came out supreme with some astute use of the 3 wood and a cunning cut with the driver into those narrow targets.Snead had no such device.The narrow gaps worried him.'
'In retrospect, I firmly believe that such a policy of letting rough grow on the fairway was a poor idea.That it prevented Sam Snead at the very height of his powers winning an Open might be enough answer.'
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 05:36:10 PM by Mike_Clayton »
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Sean_A

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2008, 06:46:11 PM »
Quote from: Mike_Clayton on May 19, 2008, 05:23:46 PM
Tom,

I am sure he is not - but I just found a book he co-wrote in 1968 about that year on tour and he said that of the 1951 Open
 'Jones made the fairways bottleneck off the tee at about 240 yard range, sometimes to a width of 30 yards.The effect of this was shocking.Hogan finally came out supreme with some astute use of the 3 wood and a cunning cut with the driver into those narrow targets.Snead had no such device.The narrow gaps worried him.'
'In retrospect, I firmly believe that such a policy of letting rough grow on the fairway was a poor idea.That it prevented Sam Snead at the very height of his powers winning an Open might be enough answer.'


It was always my impression that Snead's putter was the spanner which let him down at US Opens.

Ciao
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New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Mike_Clayton

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2008, 07:53:01 PM »
Sean,

I don't have the book with me now but Thomson did make the point that Snead knew he was behind when it came to putting and that forced him to take more risks from the tee.
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Matthew Mollica

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2008, 08:31:06 PM »
Quote from: ed_getka on May 19, 2008, 03:29:06 PM
Matthew,
     I wouldn't generalize to say that most American courses are that way. There was certainly time where that was in vogue, but I think we have moved past that stage, as evidenced by the number of well-regarded courses that are clearing trees and reintroducing some width.

Hi Ed. Thanks for the reply. Hope you're doing good too.

I was being a little facetious and provovative with my comment re US set-up. I hope Torrey Pines presents a new look US Open this year, and know that many courses over in the States are the antithesis of narrow fairways bordered by deep rough. The recent pictorial thread of Seminole warmed my heart, as do pictures of Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Bandon, and many other of your courses.

Family's all great here, and rested after a short trip to NZ. Bub's now 4 months. She wants to go back to Kidnappers again soon to pat the sheep and cows once more.

MM
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 08:34:45 PM by Matthew Mollica »
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

James Bennett

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Re: Who said this & is it a fair comment?
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2008, 09:47:52 PM »
Matthew

there is nothing like a sheep pat and a cow pat, is there?  I guess Bubs will also be going down to Ratho as well some time soon.

James B
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Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)
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