16th at Pasatiempo

[mike_beene]

Had the joy of two perfect weather rounds last week, my first time to play Pasa(with my boss whose first job was picking the range there 45 years ago). I know above the hole is dead,but both days the hole on 16 was on the middle tier.The ball would barely stay.My perception was that the greens were not at their fastest.Is this tier usable during the college tournament?Also,the false front on 5 ,on the right,is the whole front half of the green.Are there any usable positions front right?Enjoyed the prior thread,and loved the course(in my top 10),but wondered how close to the edge the set up will get for a tournament.

[Tom Huckaby]

This is a question for Rob Chestnut!  Paging Rob!

But until he gets here to answer, I shall comment thusly:  it's very cool that you got a middle pin on 16, but it warms my heart even more to hear the greens were not at their fastest.  I've also heard they were not such for the recent US Open qualifier there.  It seems as though the club is starting to play those greens as they work best - not so fast, allowing for so many more useable pins - and that brings out the Mackenzie genius, instead of stifling it as it is when they get really quick.  Man this is something I've been harping on for YEARS in here and it's really cool it seems to be coming true.

TH

[Bill_McBride]

Unpinnable areas of some greens?  See if you agree, Dr. Huckaby:

front right of #5

front of #8  (measured at 6% slope by Neal Meagher at KP II)

front of #11

most of #16

Hmmm? 

[rchesnut]

Somebody call me?

I can confirm that Pasa is "getting it" when it comes to the speed of its greens.  For a long time, the target speed was 10.5, but in practice that was a minimum...tournaments there often saw greens of 11+, which severely reduced pin placements and made several of holes extremely challenging, if not unfair.  The restoration of the course brought back an appreciation for the genius of MacKenzie's design, and a recognition that slower greens are better for the grass, and more enjoyable to play.  Tom and Jim had a strong influence here.  It's just a better course with greens at 9 or 9.5...the emphasis is on smooth, healthy greens now, even for events like the recent US Open qualifying.  Things can still get away out there a bit, at the recent Western Intercollegiate the greens got too fast on the last day, a combination of grass not growing and a little wind.  It was pretty tough...and not what we were shooting for.

On 16, there are 2 distinct middle pin locations.  Middle left, which is just nasty...very tough to get a shot to hold there even with slower greens.  You have to come with with a wedge and some spin to get it close, or (as many members to) aim for middle right or back center, and take your chances with a tough two put.  The other middle pin location is middle center/right, which is the easier pin...you've got a backboard, and can get it close here.  If you go long, it's rough, but you have several creative options. 

Unpinnable areas?  With 9.5 greens, I'd say:

Middle 3
Front right 5 (but middle/back right on 5 is doable)
Front 8
Front 11
Actually, I think a lot more of 16 is pinnable than people realize...middle left, middle center/right, the entire back ( a huge area), and (while it hasn't been done yet) front right would be technically possible.
Front right 18

Not bad, really...I'd bet that many of the above spots were intended to be false fronts, unpinnable even at speeds of 7 or so.  What's particularly  exciting is the fact that the restoration, combined with the slower speeds, has brought back a number of original pin positions. 

Glad you enjoyed the course, Mike.

Rob 

[Jon Wiggett]

Mike,

one of the problems that many GCA's face is what your thread is about.

1. There are many golf courses that are and should be designed for members play and never for tournament play. The course should be set up for how it is and not for an imposed universal formular. If a green becomes unplayable because of 'tournament conditions' then it is the tournament conditions that are unplayable not the course. Looking at it logically, if a green becomes unplayable stimping at 9 ft then it is likely to be very difficult stimping at 8 ft.
2. Many GCA's shy away from false fronts to their greens because many golfers don't understand them. I have heard many golfers complain that certain parts of a green are unpinnable. What would you rather have, more putting green but unpinnable or Fairway/semi rough?

The spirit of the game according to the R&A is 'Play the ball as you find it and play the course as it is'. Tournament conditioning has led to some super courses but lots more boring ones.

[Tom Huckaby]

Listen to Rob - he be the expert here.  Jon gives some great thoughts also.

At these wildly contoured Pasatiempo greens, it's all about speed.  At 9.5, it's right on the edge, and it goes just like Rob says.  Some areas are unpinnable, but most great areas are doable - and that's what it's all about.  Seems to me that 9.5 ought to be the MAXIMUM speed those greens ever get... it still allows for a lot of great, very difficult pins (like most of 16, as Rob says).  The problem is that once you get ABOVE that speed, the list of unpinnable areas grows exponentially - and that is not good.  So my belief is it's pretty perfect at 9.5, and the goal should be to keep them at or below that speed year round.  Say 8 for normal play (allowing a LOT of very fun pins), raise to 9.5 for tournaments.

[John Foley]

Was the front of 16 pinable at any time?

I recall thinking that would be a very neat pin, but near impossible.

[Tom Huckaby]

Was the front of 16 pinable at any time?

I recall thinking that would be a very neat pin, but near impossible.

I have to believe that it was at the speeds during Mackenzie's day.  And as it's been restored today, it's larger and flatter than it was in recent years and could easily hold a pin (assuming speeds under 9.5).

But beyond that, likely out of cruelty and to show a certain Stanford sophomore what's what, I saw the collegians play it that way... in 1995 or 96... it was pretty silly.  Said sophmore had 70 or so yards to that pin for his 2nd, and exited the green slamming his putter into the bank after taking 6.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Was the front of 16 pinable at any time?

I recall thinking that would be a very neat pin, but near impossible.

I have to believe that it was at the speeds during Mackenzie's day.  And as it's been restored today, it's larger and flatter than it was in recent years and could easily hold a pin (assuming speeds under 9.5).

But beyond that, likely out of cruelty and to show a certain Stanford sophomore what's what, I saw the collegians play it that way... in 1995 or 96... it was pretty silly.  Said sophmore had 70 or so yards to that pin for his 2nd, and exited the green slamming his putter into the bank after taking 6.

TH

Tom,

Too funny.  That guy must really suck and be out of the game today!!    

From looking at the 16th, and while I know I only played it once, but that front tier didn't look to crazy.  Challenging yes, but why not just miss short and left on the approach and leave a simple chip in to save 4?  As has been said here before, who says a player has the right to be on the green in regulation? 

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:

Remember you've only seen it as it is NOW - that front part is very doable these days (at proper speed, anyway).  Back when said sophomore had his misfortune, it was about 2/3 the size at most, and more sloped toward the creek.  It was pretty silly to put a pin there, I thought... but if the intent was to piss off that famous then, mega-famous now sophomore, well, it worked.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

Remember you've only seen it as it is NOW - that front part is very doable these days (at proper speed, anyway).  Back when said sophomore had his misfortune, it was about 2/3 the size at most, and more sloped toward the creek.  It was pretty silly to put a pin there, I thought... but if the intent was to piss off that famous then, mega-famous now sophomore, well, it worked.

TH

True,

I never saw it in its bastardized state, but am more than happy to have seen it, in what appears to be a pretty darn faithful restoration.

If MacK was watching from upstairs, I'm sure he would have gotten a chuckle out of watching that "hack" messing up the hole. Surely the big man would have called MacK to his office to watch that as he would have known what that skinny nerdy sophmore would become.

[Tom Huckaby]

Said sophomore played it in a pretty bastardized state, for sure.  I'm not sure the Good Doctor would have been smiling at that point, no matter what happened to said sophomore.  I have to believe he is very much smiling NOW, regardless of whether said former sophomore ever plays there again.

[JohnV]

I was the official in charge of the US Open qualifier there this week.  I asked them to get the greens to 10.5 and they did. 

Paul Chojnacky is a very good superintendent and was very responsive to our needs.

For those who are interested, the hole locations I used were:

1 - Back Right
2 - Front Right (probably the hardest one of the day)
3 - Front left
4 - back right
5 - center (behind bunker)
6 - mid - left (in the cutout behind the left front bunker)
7 - back center
8 - mid-left in the slot (the first group had 3 birdies)
9 - front right  (I'm tired of everyone going back on that hole)

10 - back right
11 - back right
12 - front right
13 - back left
14 - mid-back left
15 - front left
16 - back right
17 - mid left (just on the new part of the green)
18 - mid right

Medalists (2) shot 67.  70 got the 6th spot in a qualifier.  High score was 90.

The hole I used on #2 would probably be unusable at much higher speeds.  You certainly didn't want to miss it short and right.

Saddest story of the day was the player who was even par through 15 holes and went 7-9 on 16 and 17 before parring 18.

[Jon Spaulding]

TH - If I remember correct, this was 1996, and said sophomore was beaten by a decent player who holed out his 2nd shot on 11.....shooting 30 on the back nine to win the tournament. Of course none of this matters as the victor attended a far inferior university in the south bay.

[Tom Huckaby]

TH - If I remember correct, this was 1996, and said sophomore was beaten by a decent player who holed out his 2nd shot on 11.....shooting 30 on the back nine to win the tournament. Of course none of this matters as the victor attended a far inferior university in the south bay.

CORRECT!

Although I make no judgment about the respective universities.  The best one is in between these two anyway.

GO BRONCOS!

 

[Jon Spaulding]

This was with respect to our alma mater of course. Talk about a collegiate inferiority complex....

AO was a nice guy and I was glad he won. Hands down some of the best golf I have ever seen played that day. I believe he originates from the "octogenarial area" of the peninsula, but went to the public high school up there instead of hoity-toity Serra..... . He also served as assistant coach @ SCU for a few years while getting his game back in shape. One might make the case that an exposure to jesuit excellence allowed for him to do as well as he has on the tour.

[Bill_McBride]

x

[Mike Benham]

... I believe he originates from the "octogenarial area" of the peninsula...

You guys are going to need to use bigger fonts if you expect me to read these posts ...

[mike_beene]

John,do you know what the greens were running prior to the qualifier.I was there just over a week ago.Did you use the tee back across the road on #2? I don't know how you keep a ball on front right of 2.A dead hands shot runs left,and a cut short iron spins down.After that I am about out of shots.Any OBs on 6?

[David Stamm]

16 pre Doak restoration.

[Jon Spaulding]

DS; here's a slightly different angle of "Pre-D"....

[JohnV]

John,do you know what the greens were running prior to the qualifier.I was there just over a week ago.Did you use the tee back across the road on #2? I don't know how you keep a ball on front right of 2.A dead hands shot runs left,and a cut short iron spins down.After that I am about out of shots.Any OBs on 6?

Mike, I don't know what they were running.  They had been top dressed a few days before I was there on Friday to set the holes so they weren't super quick.

We didn't use the tee across the road as that would have required stationing someone there to stop traffic and I didn't want to use my resources that way.

I don't know if there were any OBs on 6 but there probably were a few.  We used new tee behind the 5th green and I think it is harder to hit it out from there.  When I get my work computer hooked up I will get the average hole scores for all the holes and post them.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Had the joy of experiencing Pasa for the first time last friday with my dad. I'll add a few stories and pictures to the other recent Pasa thread but wanted to start here. My dad hit his best drive and best approach (25 HCP) on 16 to the top left corner of the green. As you can see the pin was on the right-side of the middle tier.






This is where the caddy told him to hit his putt...



...And he did exactly that to the point that I thought it was going to hang up top for sure and it had just enough to catch the hill and fall down to the right...



...on the way down it looked as if it would hit the pin but alas it rolled about a ball outside the cup and ended up here where he is putting from now...



... where he proceeded to hit 2 more great putts that just fell back down the hill until the third try held up...



from which he then two-putted. All in all his best drive of the day, his best approach, 1 putt exactly as the caddie instructed and he finished with a total of 6 putts and an 8 for the hole. He (and I) loved every minute of it to boot.

Another good look at the complexity of the tiers from the 17th tee box...



Easily our favorite hole at Pasa and I am somewhat convinced that although I have not seen a ton of great courses in my young life, Pasatiempo #16 will stay in my top 18 holes for life.

[Mike Benham]

Patrick -

I would be interested in hear how the other golfers in your group played to that hole location ...

Mike

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick, I liked reading about your father's adventures on #16.  I just can't imagine having fun if I 6-putted, though.