16th at Pasatiempo

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Patrick -

I would be interested in hear how the other golfers in your group played to that hole location ...

Mike

It was just the two of us with our caddy which was great as we both had plenty of time to soak in the course and take the 200+ pictures.

I pulled my drive slightly and caught the trees on the left. I had 225 yards in with the ball a foot above me in the rough. (Basically right on the edge of the shadow of the over-hang in this photo.



I hit a 3 iron just right of the front of the green and ended up right below the left of the two fingers in the bunker. As you can see from where I was raking...



I hit a great shot out of the bunker that ricocheted off the pin to the right (had it not the caddy told me it might have gone in coming back down the ridge) and it came back down the ridge and stopped on the right side of the middle tier which you can see here...



Of course I then got a bad read from the caddy (said it didn't play down hill which it did quite severely) and three putted for my 6 to beat dad by 2.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Patrick, I liked reading about your father's adventures on #16.  I just can't imagine having fun if I 6-putted, though. 

He is still learning the game and starting to have some success. He wasn't happy with it especially after how good his first 2 shots and first putt were but he still walked off with a smile on his face. Part of it might have been that I was stinking up the back 9 and he was really playing well.

[Tom Huckaby]

Interesting that Pasa offers caddies.  I've played there for 30 years and never seen one.  Did they say if this is a new thing?

And very cool pics and stories regarding 16.   Policy of the course seems to be to keep the greens at 9.5 or so, which is semi-slow the way greens go these days - and which is VERY VERY perfect for that course, allowing for pins such as you got on 16.  Imagine that green running fast, say 11... it would get rather comical, no?  That is, your Dad might still be there putting.

 

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Interesting that Pasa offers caddies.  I've played there for 30 years and never seen one.  Did they say if this is a new thing?

And very cool pics and stories regarding 16.   Policy of the course seems to be to keep the greens at 9.5 or so, which is semi-slow the way greens go these days - and which is VERY VERY perfect for that course, allowing for pins such as you got on 16.  Imagine that green running fast, say 11... it would get rather comical, no?  That is, your Dad might still be there putting.

 

Yea it wasn't much of a program we came to find out. They said you can request one online, which we did, and when the pro called again to confirm out tee-time I asked again and he said they would have one. When we got there they didn't and said they wouldn't be able to get one. In the hour before we teed off they had found one. (A nice college player from the area) We were happy to have one though and he helped out a lot on most of the greens in a lot of spots where I read it on the wrong side even.

That being said I never felt comfortable or on the same page with what club to hit, partially because I had a new set and wasn't totally sure on my distances, but mostly because he gave me bad adjustments in terms of the hill and wind.

My dad agreed that he was well worth taking and helped a ton on the greens but not much in the fairway.

The other goofy part though was that because it is such a bare bones system the club had no way for us to pay by credit card or check and as a result we had to write him a check. Kind of goofy imo but he didn't seem to care.

The greens were perfect around 10. They played fast but not impossible (I can only imagine them at 11+) and we saw some great pins, none greater than 16, as a result.

[Tom Huckaby]

Rob Chestnut can confirm, but it would seem they are working out the kinks in a new caddie "program."  Very cool he helped anyway.  That is one very tricky golf course as you saw!

And 10 puts the greens right on their edge, I think.  But yep, the key is what pins can be done... many of the other greens also have large unpinnable spots at higher speed.  It is very very cool the course has seen the light.

TH

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick, from where your father hit his first putt, is there any way to keep the ball on the middle tier?  Other than holing it, I mean.  From your description, sounds close to impossible.   

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Patrick, from where your father hit his first putt, is there any way to keep the ball on the middle tier?  Other than holing it, I mean.  From your description, sounds close to impossible.   

I thought long and hard about this myself. I wonder if he couldn't have played all the way to the back corner of the green and catch the ridge which my ball caught after hitting the pin and bouncing to the right (which I didnt see as I was in the bunker). This seems like the only possibility to me (other than maybe flopping a 60* and getting some spin) because he seriously could not have hit it any slower on top of the hill to catch the ridge (as I mentioned before I thought it was going to stay up.) I wish I had tried it myself but after taking so much time with my dad's 6-putt we had to keep moving.

[Jerry Kluger]

I am wondering whether this is a positive or a negative with respect to the good of the game.  Here we have a great course which is available for public play at a substantial fee and it just kicks the butt of the average golfer.  How many 16 handicaps would view a 6 putt as fun?  How about how long it takes to play a hole where there is a 6 putt.  Sure, most of us GCA types look at it as fun but the average golfer does not enjoy getting his butt kicked.  I seriously doubt most golfers would have continued the frustration of 6 putts and would probably have given up after 3 or 4.  I might have had a grin on my face if it happened to me but I doubt most others would.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jerry:

Understand that Patrick played this green right on the edge of doability, at 10 stimp.  Most of the time - from what Rob says - it will be a bit slower.  But the main thing is that with that middle pin, well... it's takes a VERY long shot to reach the top tier.  That is, it's effectly 25 yards I'd say past where you want to be.  That is, it's only about 10 yards in ground distance, but it's very very uphill... thus the equivalent of hitting it 25 yards long.  SO... one really shouldn't get to where Patrick's dad did... and if one does, one pays a very steep price and should expect to.

TH

[Sean_A]

Jerry:

Understand that Patrick played this green right on the edge of doability, at 10 stimp.  Most of the time - from what Rob says - it will be a bit slower.  But the main thing is that with that middle pin, well... it's takes a VERY long shot to reach the top tier.  That is, it's effectly 25 yards I'd say past where you want to be.  That is, it's only about 10 yards in ground distance, but it's very very uphill... thus the equivalent of hitting it 25 yards long.  SO... one really shouldn't get to where Patrick's dad did... and if one does, one pays a very steep price and should expect to.

TH

AwsHuckster

If I am not mistaken, the green was steep and fast enough to cause two putts to coming rolling back to the player's feet.  I don't know if he was way short and paid a price, but if he gets it up near the hole and it rolls back down - its bad news in terms of architecture and or maintenance.

Ciao

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean:

You are not mistaken.

BUT... no offense to Patrick's Dad, but the putt from the bottom is really not THAT hard, not in terms of keeping it on the middle shelf, anyway.  It's fairly simple to just whack it and use the back of the last tier as a backstop of sorts.

Hey, I am not saying this is an easy green - good lord, I have railed against it's absurdity for YEARS, and hell I four-putted it myself the last time I played it.  But if it is kept at a reasonable speed, it is very doable.  Just understand that middle tier pin is always going to be very very tough.   I just don't find it absurd, or un-fun; not at a reasonable speed anyway.  Take it to 11 and it is indeed both those things.

TH

[Jim Nugent]

Huck or anyone: what are putts like when the pin is on the middle tier, and your ball is on the upper tier? 

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck or anyone: what are putts like when the pin is on the middle tier, and your ball is on the upper tier? 

Jim - you saw what happened to Patrick's Dad.  I do believe that at 10 or more speed, one really does have zero chance to hold the middle tier.  At below that it can be done.

TH

[Jerry Kluger]

But Huck, what if his dad was playing with some non- GCA guys - what do you think the reaction would be, would they come back for more - I doubt it.  If they are told this is great golf then maybe their reaction is the heck with it, I'm just not good enough to play the game, and they quit.  So 2% of the golfers, like us, are driving 98% of the golfers away from the game.  I may enjoy it, but what about the other 98%.

[Tom Huckaby]

But Huck, what if his dad was playing with some non- GCA guys - what do you think the reaction would be, would they come back for more - I doubt it.  If they are told this is great golf then maybe their reaction is the heck with it, I'm just not good enough to play the game, and they quit.  So 2% of the golfers, like us, are driving 98% of the golfers away from the game.  I may enjoy it, but what about the other 98%.

Jerry:  I get what you're saying.  I agree with you that most would look at this as goofy-golf and be turned off rather than get any smiles out of it.  Hell I myself have stated on here many times that at the faster speeds they had that green before, it was absurd and ought to have been utterly cryit downe.

But what you are missing are two factors:

a) they played it right on the edge speed-wise; perhaps even too fast.  Slow it down a little - as the course intends to do and apparently does most days - and there are no issues.

b) again, it's a pretty long past the pin shot (as I explained) to get it to top tier with a middle pin.  Very few will have that happen.  And one way or the other, that's a very severe pin that won't be often used.

SO... if the course plays how it's intended and/or the golfer faces a less severe pin, oh it's still gonna be a crazy tough green, but it won't be seen as goofy-golf by the majority, I think.

TH

[Michael Moore]

But Huck, what if his dad was playing with some non- GCA guys - what do you think the reaction would be, would they come back for more - I doubt it.  If they are told this is great golf then maybe their reaction is the heck with it, I'm just not good enough to play the game, and they quit.  So 2% of the golfers, like us, are driving 98% of the golfers away from the game.  I may enjoy it, but what about the other 98%.

Jerry -

You don't have to be a "non-GCA guy" to be revulsed by a green that affords six-putting.

[Kalen Braley]

I don't doubt his first putt was almost impossible, and would have guessed thats where his ball would have ended up on the front tier.

But I don't see why it took 3 putts to hit it up to that middle tier, especially with the ramp up to the top tier acting as a backstop.

So even though 6 putts sounds like a travesty, it could have very easily been done in 4.  I know that sounds crazy, but you just can't be above the hole on this green, simple as that.   I think the green complex is fascinating and certainly the most interesting I've ever seen.

[Tom Huckaby]

And I too would be revulsed by such a thing also, in general. There was a thread not very long ago in which I called this very green "absurd" among other things.

But I based this on years of experience with the green at very fast speed.  Some here seem to be basing their assessment on the one-time result achieved by a high handicapper who got his ball to a very unlikely and very bad place, with the green at the very edge of doable speed and using the very most difficult pin, and who also took three tries to achieve decent success on a putt that really is not that difficult.  I find that to be rather unfair.

The green is a bitch, for sure.  But keep the speeds moderate and it's actually pretty great.  And I say that most definitely as a card-carrying NON-GCAer (in terms of beliefs, anyway).

 

[Bill_McBride]

But Huck, what if his dad was playing with some non- GCA guys - what do you think the reaction would be, would they come back for more - I doubt it.  If they are told this is great golf then maybe their reaction is the heck with it, I'm just not good enough to play the game, and they quit.  So 2% of the golfers, like us, are driving 98% of the golfers away from the game.  I may enjoy it, but what about the other 98%.

Jerry:  I get what you're saying.  I agree with you that most would look at this as goofy-golf and be turned off rather than get any smiles out of it.  Hell I myself have stated on here many times that at the faster speeds they had that green before, it was absurd and ought to have been utterly cryit downe.

But what you are missing are two factors:

a) they played it right on the edge speed-wise; perhaps even too fast.  Slow it down a little - as the course intends to do and apparently does most days - and there are no issues.

b) again, it's a pretty long past the pin shot (as I explained) to get it to top tier with a middle pin.  Very few will have that happen.  And one way or the other, that's a very severe pin that won't be often used.

SO... if the course plays how it's intended and/or the golfer faces a less severe pin, oh it's still gonna be a crazy tough green, but it won't be seen as goofy-golf by the majority, I think.

TH

I thought they played it at "normal" speeds, say 9.5. 

This is a great lesson in keeping the ball below the hole!

[Jerry Kluger]

I saw Jay Flemma do the same thing when he was above the hole on the 14th at Baltimore CC - but that is a private club and the members know that you cannot be above the hole.  Here we are talking about a public course and not everyone is going to be a 5 handicap and understand the absolutes with respect to how the play a particular hole.  It is those absolutes that scare me in the sense that it could turn people off to the game. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Bill:  Patrick later reported he thought the green was 10.   That's pretty fast, as I say, right on the edge of doability for Pasatiempo.

Jerry:  I understand what you are getting at, believe me.  But note this is a semiprivate course.  But more importantly, the green is likely more steeply contoured than 99.9% of greens any golfer willl ever see.  It does not take any particular golf skill, nor the brains or profession of Steve Pieracci*, to see that one simply should not get above the hole... and that one ought not to expect much success putting downhill on this green.

TH

* rocket scientist by trade, great golfer by passion.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Glad to see this is generating some interest.

The second putt from the bottom of the hill indeed wasn't that hard. For whatever reason the caddy waited until he hit the first two just short to let him know he could play it off the backstop which he did with the third. (Although that one almost rolled all the way back down.) That being said I agree it should have been a 4-putt had the caddy spoken up a little before or if had we been playing it a second time.

I am not sure whether I think that the greens at this speed are absurd. I could argue it both ways. The greens were great to play on all the rest of the holes at this speed (around 10) and this is probably the one and only place where a putt was impossible to make. However it is a little ridiculous for a 25 HCP to hit a putt as perfectly as he could and get that result.

If there is indeed a way to keep that putt on the green, like perhaps hitting it to the far right corner and letting it come down at a more diagonal line to the pin, then I don't think it is unfair, just ridiculously tough.

When we play it again I am sure both of us would keep it well below the hole.   

I thought it was a ton of fun to have the middle-tier pin, as tough as it was, after hearing here how rare it was here before we played. We had great pin positions all day, but then again are there any bad ones on these greens?

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

Get the speeds to 11 or faster and there are a TON of bad positions.  Make them 9-5 or less and there really are none. 

16 just tends to show this most clearly; although 8 holds up it's head nicely in this as well.

TH

[Sean_A]

It sounds like the type of scenario where a 3 putt is nearly certain which is fair enough.  If 4 putt comes into it, then the green (for whatever reason) is  too severe.  To me it doesn't matter much why its bad so long as the problem can be solved.  I like adventerous golf, but there has to be a limit.  I am not sure how one defines the limit, but I think we should be very careful about changing greens if they are reasonable at the 9ish range.  If the greens are rolling quicker than that, perhaps its time to take stock of what is actually being done to the course and how it effects the customers.  For the life of me, I don't know why places get greens rolling quicker than 9.  Life would be so much easier for all involved if egos were kept in check. 

Ciao

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean:

What you just posted there is an issue I've been ranting on / raving about / wondering about for at least a decade now.

Pasatiempo has some very wild, very heavily contoured greens; the 16th is just the wildest.

As I've said for a decade plus, keep it 9 or less and it's as fun as golf can get.  Make it more than that and it is absurd. 

Thus I agree completely with that last post.

I'm just trying to convey to you in this thread that 16 Pasatiempo can work.  Our friends here just saw it right at the very edge of such.  Make the green 9 or less and it's not like any putt would be a certain three-putt... but none are a certain two putt either.   Hell 4 putts could still happen if one is not careful... but it won't be due to GRAVITY, but rather failure in skill. 

It's a brilliant green when played at the speed it's brilliant creator intended.  Faster that that and it is as stupid as golf can get.

The good news is this:  rather than change/soften the green to allow for speed, Pasatiempo took the BRILLIANT step of restoring the green to how Mackenzie intended it, including slowing down the speed so as to avoid absurdity.

And if this is not a breath of fresh air in a golf world filled with otherwise bad news, than I don't know what is.

Tom H.