Did Jack Nicklaus peak early?

[Dan Herrmann]

Did Jack Nicklaus' design career peak early with Murfield Village and Glen Abbey?  Or, did he build on those course designs to design greater works later in his career?

I think Murfield Village is still his best, and it's his first.  I see it as his Ohio homage to Augusta National.   Glen Abbey in metro Toronto is on a tough property with a big of a canyon, but I've always found the course to be enjoyable and clever.

My experience with Mr. Nicklaus' courses is limited, however, so I don't know if his later work surpassed the first two.

What do you think?

[Garland Bayley]

I think he may still be improving. Take Sebonack and The Concession for example.

EDIT:

Come to think about it, maybe he needs a co-designer to bring out his best, e.g. Muirfield and Hilton Head.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Rather than search what may never be found at Merion, and while many are still alive would it seem to me an interesting essay on the teaming of Desmond Muirhead and Jack Nicklaus and Muirfield.  Wasn't it considered to be pretty good from the get go?
Having said that, I suppose it is a bit like Merion in that it has been refined many times and today is mostly a Jack Nicklaus design as he is the one who has overseen the changes.

On the subject of peaking early, I don't play his courses so I am not one to speak, but I suspect it comes down to design associates, present and past.  They have the most influence on the final product.

[Jim Nugent]

Lynn, I'm pretty sure Muirhead used to say he really did the design.  It's certainly hard for me to believe Jack did the routing.  And if you don't do the routing, are you really the architect? 

I'm real curious how good the rest of you think MV is now.  The golf mags usually put it top 30 U.S.   Sometimes better.  Golf Digest, e.g., ranks it #18, which makes it better in their opinion than Olympic Lake, Pinehurst, Prairie Dunes and Riviera, among others. 

Does that seem a fair rating to you guys?  Where would you rank Muirfield Village?

A huge disconnect: Golf Magazine ranks Riviera #19, while Golf Digest ranks it #61.  Any thoughts from raters (or anyone else) about this? 

[Dan Herrmann]

Jim, I've never been to MV, but it's impressed me since I first saw it on TV.   MV 12 is an obvious copy of ANGC 12, which is OK in my book.  Homage holes are, I think underused - especially when there's love for the original as is the case with Jack.

But I think Glen Abbey has been somewhat depreciated.  The Canadian Open isn't held there annually anymore, and some changes, like the green complex on 17, seem to have been misguided.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Did Jack Nicklaus career peak early?

Yes.  He only one three PGA Tour events after turning 41.

[cary lichtenstein]

Just the opposite, his courses are peaking now.

His early courses were not very good, but he has found his formula and let's his asociates have more freedom, but I think it is very associate dependent.

I'd be surprised it JN has more than a mostly passive input.

[Dan Herrmann]

cary - good information... 

Can you share some of his more recent work that illustrates his growth?

Thanks

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Dan,

Obviously, The Concession is one of his better new projects- GD's Best New Private winner. The Outlaw at Desert Mountain is another as is Mayacama in CA. Also see the thread on the new Ritz Carlton Club at Creighton Farms in VA. Old Corkscrew in Naples, FL has also received good reviews.

[Andy Troeger]

Castle Pines is very strong among the older set of Nicklaus courses. Sycamore Hills is a good one as well.

[Jon Wiggett]

Dan,

one of the reasons why Muirfield Village is one of his bests might be because he has had the possibility to tweak/rebuild it over the years. I am sure that there are very few GCA's who don't look back at their projects and think that with a bit of tweaking it would be better.

[Dan Herrmann]

Good info all - thanks

[John Engelbrecht]

I am not normally a fan of his work, but, I was very impressed with his work at the May River Club near Hilton Head Island.

[Paul Saathoff]

IMO, I think some of the best work done has been the newer stuff.  Take for example Kinloch, North PB CC, Dismal River, Bear Lakes Links (yes a redesign, but TOTAL redesign, nothing old left) among some of the others mentioned... Corkscrew, Concession etc.  Granted I've only seen these in pictures, but the "new look" is definately more interesting visually than the older courses IMO.  I also think the work we are currently doing in Asia will be among the best. 

[Greg Tallman]

Just the opposite, his courses are peaking now.

His early courses were not very good, but he has found his formula and let's his asociates have more freedom, but I think it is very associate dependent.

I'd be surprised it JN has more than a mostly passive input.

While he certainly has as talented a group of designers as there is anywhere the oft suggested absentee label is a bit overplayed and unfair.

Jack designed The Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol 15 years ago... and visits as frequently to review the course as some suggest he does for a new design... this board is as full of gossip as a PTA meeting, unfortunately promoted by some of the more popular contributors. 

Folks... if you do not have first hand knowledge... keep you guesses to yourselves.

[Paul Saathoff]

this board is as full of gossip as a PTA meeting, unfortunately promoted by some of the more popular contributors. 

Folks... if you do not have first hand knowledge... keep you guesses to yourselves.

This post is a breath of fresh air... Thank you Greg. 

To those that think Jack's newer course designs have been better recently:  Is this perhaps a correlation between him retiring from competitive golf, meaning he has more time to fully commit to his design business.  Just a seed to plant in the mind of those that think he has "no more than a passive input"

I will tell you from seeing this personally that when Mr. Nicklaus is not traveling to sites (which is quite often) he can be found in the office every day reviewing plans and discussing designs with his associates.

[Steve Verde]

I'm real curious how good the rest of you think MV is now.  The golf mags usually put it top 30 U.S.   Sometimes better.  Golf Digest, e.g., ranks it #18, which makes it better in their opinion than Olympic Lake, Pinehurst, Prairie Dunes and Riviera, among others. 

Does that seem a fair rating to you guys?  Where would you rank Muirfield Village?

I really like Muirfield Village.  I actually agree with Golf Digest in that I would rather played MV any day of the week over Pinehurst.  The one clear advantage MV has over Pinehurst is the demand placed on tee shots.  Muirfield Village has some interesting tee shots that require both good decisions and execution while Pinehurst places almost zero emphasis on the tee shots and instead is all about the approach and short gamE.

While I occasionally enjoy big, undulating greens, I prefer more subtle greens.  Muirfield Village has some of my favorite greens because of their perfect conditioning and subtle contours.  I don't know about you guys but I enjoy making putts and Muirfield Village allows the good player to make a lot of putts within 20 feet.

[David Stamm]

Lynn, I'm pretty sure Muirhead used to say he really did the design.  It's certainly hard for me to believe Jack did the routing.  And if you don't do the routing, are you really the architect? 

I'm real curious how good the rest of you think MV is now.  The golf mags usually put it top 30 U.S.   Sometimes better.  Golf Digest, e.g., ranks it #18, which makes it better in their opinion than Olympic Lake, Pinehurst, Prairie Dunes and Riviera, among others. 

Does that seem a fair rating to you guys?  Where would you rank Muirfield Village?

A huge disconnect: Golf Magazine ranks Riviera #19, while Golf Digest ranks it #61.  Any thoughts from raters (or anyone else) about this? 

I don't make it a point to seek out JN's courses. They just don't appeal to me. I do think he has gotten better and his courses are far more interesting looking compare to what he did early on.

I have heard from quite a few that Muirhead was the main force behind the first MV edition.

I have never played MV, so take this FWIW, but GD's ranking seems WAY too high to me. I would think the 4 you mentioned (I have only played one of the four) are better courses in a walk, IMHO. The GD ranking for Riviera is absurd.  As far as where to place it, without playing it, it's hard to say, but probably bottom 20, if at all.

[Jim Nugent]

While he certainly has as talented a group of designers as there is anywhere the oft suggested absentee label is a bit overplayed and unfair.

Jack designed The Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol 15 years ago... and visits as frequently to review the course as some suggest he does for a new design... this board is as full of gossip as a PTA meeting, unfortunately promoted by some of the more popular contributors. 

Folks... if you do not have first hand knowledge... keep you guesses to yourselves.

Has Jack routed any courses?  If so, can you tell me which ones? 

 

[Steve Kline]

I'm real curious how good the rest of you think MV is now.  The golf mags usually put it top 30 U.S.   Sometimes better.  Golf Digest, e.g., ranks it #18, which makes it better in their opinion than Olympic Lake, Pinehurst, Prairie Dunes and Riviera, among others. 

Does that seem a fair rating to you guys?  Where would you rank Muirfield Village?

I really like Muirfield Village.  I actually agree with Golf Digest in that I would rather played MV any day of the week over Pinehurst.  The one clear advantage MV has over Pinehurst is the demand placed on tee shots.  Muirfield Village has some interesting tee shots that require both good decisions and execution while Pinehurst places almost zero emphasis on the tee shots and instead is all about the approach and short gamE.

While I occasionally enjoy big, undulating greens, I prefer more subtle greens.  Muirfield Village has some of my favorite greens because of their perfect conditioning and subtle contours.  I don't know about you guys but I enjoy making putts and Muirfield Village allows the good player to make a lot of putts within 20 feet.

I totally disagree with this. I've played MV twice, Riviera once and Pinehurst a couple hundred. Pinehurst and Riviera are much better golf courses than MV. Riviera has a number of holes that were innovations or first of their kind. MV not so much. Perhaps you haven't played Pinehurst pre-U.S. Open fairways. When the fairways were wider driving was actually more important. You could position yourself in different places for different pins. Even with the narrower fairways driving is still important there. You are not hitting many of those greens from the rough. Yes you won't be in the trees, water, OB or lose your ball but that gives Pinehurst major bonus points in my book. It's still difficult but there's always the chance to recover.

What sets MV apart from many of the other great Ohio courses? Why would it be considered so much better than Camargo, Scioto, The Golf Club, Inverness, and Cantebury? I think MV is a very good course and have had man memorable moments there, but I think the raters have gotten carried away because it is Jack's best course.

[Jim Nugent]

Jack designed The Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol 15 years ago... and visits as frequently to review the course as some suggest he does for a new design...

What I'm unclear about is what it means to say Jack designed The Ocean Course.  (Or any course.) 

I've asked before on this website if Jack has ever routed any courses.   No one has come up with examples.  Which fits what I understand to be his design model: others do the routing, perhaps with some input from him.  Is that what happened at The Ocean Course, or did Jack route that one himself?

In my own mind, if you don't route a course, you didn't design it and cannot be considered the course's architect.  Maybe I'm wrong: I'm a rank amateur with no gca experience.  That said, I keep hearing, at least on this website, that routing is the most important part of golf course architecture.  That makes intuitive sense to me. 

Jack has created a great golf course designing/building factory.  They produce top-notch golf courses all around the world.  (Though to date no masterpieces that stand with the greats.)  I have trouble seeing him as a designer though. 

Would be happy for someone to show me I'm wrong, on any or all of these points. 

[Andy Troeger]

FWIW, Muirfield Village is and has been for awhile a course that would make my shortest list of places I'd like to see (top ten for sure).

The interesting comparison for me will be to a course just across town in The Golf Club, which ranks in my personal top five. If it can beat that one I will have to be very impressed.

[Brandon Skopelja]

Jim,
 What do you think when a design associate does a preliminary routing for a piece of property and Jack then reviews it and reroutes the golf course per his visit to the site? Do you consider this to be a golf course routed by Jack?  Curious to your thoughts. . .
Thanks

[Glenn Spencer]

Lynn, I'm pretty sure Muirhead used to say he really did the design.  It's certainly hard for me to believe Jack did the routing.  And if you don't do the routing, are you really the architect? 

I'm real curious how good the rest of you think MV is now.  The golf mags usually put it top 30 U.S.   Sometimes better.  Golf Digest, e.g., ranks it #18, which makes it better in their opinion than Olympic Lake, Pinehurst, Prairie Dunes and Riviera, among others. 

Does that seem a fair rating to you guys?  Where would you rank Muirfield Village?

A huge disconnect: Golf Magazine ranks Riviera #19, while Golf Digest ranks it #61.  Any thoughts from raters (or anyone else) about this? 

Jim,

I just did a quick eclectic 18 on one of the other threads. I don't remember if I forgot about Muirfield or if it just didn't make it. It is a really good golf course, but I have never understood its lofty ranking. I also forgot Canterbury, so that is no idictment.

I would rank Golf Club, Inverness, Camargo, Canterbury and NCR in Ohio at least even if not ahead of it. I think of Muirfield as another one of Ohio's great courses, but, I don't think of it as a shrine or some top 40 in the world type course.

[Jim Nugent]

Good question, Brandon.  I don't really know.  Guess I'd like to see how much of the original routing is kept...how much Jack changes it.  I'd also be interested in learning how much work had to go into the original routing, before Jack could come in and do his own routing work.  

If Jack routed a course by himself, that would put this question to rest.  I for one would love to see that.  Though from what I understand of how he runs his business -- managing dozens of projects at the same time -- is that very likely?