Seminole Pictures

[John Sabino]

It has taken me a couple of years, but I finally played Seminole this past winter. Very few golf clubs have the reputation that Seminole has and I was very happy to finally play it. A discretely took some pictures.

The Seminole Club House and pebble courtyard.



We all know that Seminole has the best locker room in the world, so the obligatory picture of it below:



I had heard from people that have played Seminole that the locker room is better than the golf course. I would disagree on that. The golf course is spectacular. In particular, the routing was done very effectively by Ross and the greens are world-class. I found that unless you hit to the correct spot on the green, and below the hole, you are in real trouble. Due to the tilted and elevated nature of the greens, a less than ideal shot will roll off into a bunker. The 18th green, is below:



The relatively short par three fifth hole:



Hogan's favorite hole, the sixth, with an elevated green set at an angle to the line of play:



As you can see, the course is not beautiful to look at, it is wide open, it is not lush and the course runs hard and fast. I suspect for some, it is hard to look past these elements and see the genius of the course. My favorite hole was #12, seen below.



It is a moderate length par four that plays downhill. The tricky part is the size of the green (small) and the angle it is set at (diagonal to the fairway). And, like all holes at Seminole, well bunkered around the green.

The fourth hole (below) is the #1 handicap hole and has an oblong crowned green similar to Ross's work at Pinehurst #2.

[BVince]

Joseph, thanks for taking the time to post the pictures.  Looks like you had a great time!  The layout looks fabulous and a real joy.  It would be a joy to play there some day.

[Phil McDade]

Joseph:

Great pictures; like those on the Merion thread, I have long wanted to see close-up, in-depth pictures of Seminole, which for historical reasons seems to be maybe the most low-key great course in the country.

Quick question -- occasional threads have talked about whether or not Seminole could be characterized as a "flat course." Can you illuminate? I gather there are some ridges that play a significant role in the routing; what was it like to walk the course? How does it play -- generally flat with built-up greens, or perhaps more of a gently rolling character?

[John Sabino]

Phil - Good question. I would say Seminole is absolutely atypical of Florida golf generally, which is quite flat. The course is set between dunes that run along the Atlantic and a big set of dunes that run along the back of the property that are forty feet high. There are many shots that play uphill or down using the dunes. The second shots on #2 and #11 are sharply uphill to the green, as is the tee shot on the par three 13th. #3, #12 and #14 play downhill from a tee set atop dunes. That's six shots I can recall that play uphill or down that simply use the terrain and are not built up artificially. What makes the answer less than clearcut is that the middle of the course is quite flat and many of the greens there are basically on flat ground, but Ross elevated the greens and either tilted or crowned them which tips the balance toward a course that does not play flat at all, even on holes that are not on hilly ground.

[Dean Stokes]

Phil, It's probably the easiest course to walk in this country! Only 6800 ish from the tips and you can fall off every green onto the next tee box.

How does it play though? I've had the good fortune through caddying there to play the course maybe fifteen times. I still have not played to my handicap

The green complexes are so cleverly angled and tilted, the greens brick hard and running in the teens, that even though most of your shots are with medium to short irons it needs perfectly struck, shaped shots to stay on the greens.

Any hook spin or fade that is riding the wind is sure to end up in a bunker or down a run off area that can sometimes mean a 50 yard chip.

As Joseph said, you get above the hole on any green and it is a fine effort just to two putt. You really can play well at Seminole and walk off scratching your head - or at least I do. Next time maybe.

[Chuck Brown]

"Covet", "jealousy" and "envy" are, I confess, my initial emotions in looking at these pictures.  I think if I were offered either a membership at ANGC or Seminole, I'd take Seminole.

Does anybody know precisely what strain of grass (Bermuda, I presume) they have on their greens?

In The Confidential Guide, Tom Doak described the wonderful use of the two ridgelines of dunes in the routing.  But he also wondered about Dick Wilson's role in what we see in today's Seminole.  Does anybody know the details on that?

[BVince]

Chuck, why Seminole over ANGC?

[JC Jones]

Chuck, why Seminole over ANGC?

I have that very same question.  Is it an access issue or a "who the club has turned down" issue?

[David Kelly]

Chuck, why Seminole over ANGC?

I have that very same question.  Is it an access issue or a "who the club has turned down" issue?

I would easily chose Seminole over ANGC for many reasons - because it is arguably a better course, from what I know it is a better atmosphere, the weather is better, and you would probably get to play more golf.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Any enlightenment on the Ross/Wilson input?

[Chuck Brown]

Oh, it's simple.  Nothing to do with exclusivity at all.  Just a better place to play at, more often.  And better players among the membership to learn from.  Augusta is closed for much of the year. 
My intent was not to knock either one of the two magnificent clubs; just an attempt to pay what I thought was the ultimate compliment to Seminole.

Isn't Champions Tour player John Harris a member of the trifecta of ANGC, Seminole and Cypress, dating back from before he turned pro as a senior?

[JC Jones]

Oh, it's simple.  Nothing to do with exclusivity at all.  Just a better place to play at, more often.  And better players among the membership to learn from.  Augusta is closed for much of the year. 
My intent was not to knock either one of the two magnificent clubs; just an attempt to pay what I thought was the ultimate compliment to Seminole.

Isn't Champions Tour player John Harris a member of the trifecta of ANGC, Seminole and Cypress, dating back from before he turned pro as a senior?

Fair enough.  I have not played or been to either so I have no opinion.  I have heard nothing but positives re Seminole and certainly being able to play all year is a MAJOR plus.

That being said, I would join Crystal Downs over any club in the world and you can only play that 6 months of the year.  (Maybe my opinions would change if I ever played ANGC or Seminole...)

[Jeff Grossman]

Great pictures!  So Joe how did you manage to get on?

[John Sabino]

Mark - according to the just published club history, the superintednet Hal Hick oversaw a rebuilding of the greens beginning in 1990, "We dug out the shell of every green complex and rebuit it with layers of rock and sand and installed the new drainage systems and replaced the bent grass greens with a Tiff Dwarf Bermuda. Using the original Ross drawings and later technology we put the greens back exactly as they were before the start of the rebuilding program - with the same contours they had following Dick Wilson's work on them in 1948. At that time, Wilson had tilted them slightly from back to front, and had taken out some of the more severe slopes in places. Wilson also made some of the bunkers larger and had given them a flashed aspect in many spots."

It also states that Brian Silva was hired to renovate Seminole's bunkers and tees in 1994. He also filled in three of the 186 bunkers - next to greens eight, twelve and thirteen.

I interpret this to mean that they restored them to the same shapes that Ross built them but left in Wilson's changes on contouring.

[John Sabino]

JC and Chuck - Seminole is closed from May through the end of October so I'm not sure it's an advantage over Augusta.

Jeff - charm and good looks 

[David Kelly]

Yeah but its cool/cold most of the winter in Augusta and it is usually very nice at Seminole during those same months.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,

Thanks for the pictures.

I've been raving about Seminole for years.

It's a wonderful, sporty golf course with wide fairways, fairly benign rough, great green complexes and that brownish/yellowish/greenish tinge to the course.  Tight lies are the norm and the wind makes it humm.

Unfortunately, your pictures don't convey the bunker depth or slope of the greens into the surrounding bunkers and fairway.

Hal Hicks, formerly of Pine Tree has done a great job, as have those in charge of the golf course.

I only wish you had panned a little left in taking your picture of the locker room.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joseph,

Seminole looks absolutely tremendous.

It seems to be trendy in recent years to say that Seminole is overrated, but in looking at your pictures, and imagining typical firm, windy play, I have to believe it's likely underrated.

[John Sheehan]

Joseph,

Thanks for posting those great pictures.  This is a Ross course I have always wanted to play and those pictures whet my appetite even more. 

That IS a bar in locker room isn't it?  They have apparently thought of everything...

How deep is that bunker on hole #5?  In other words, how much elevation change is there from the bottom of the bunker up to the putting surface?

[Matt Bosela]

Thanks for the pictures Joseph.

I enjoy your blog as well.  Continued good luck.

[Matt_Cohn]

I only wish you had panned a little left in taking your picture of the locker room.

Why? Or am I missing something obvious.

[John Sabino]

Matt - from what I remember, Pat's name is on one of the tournament winner boards up in the locker room, that lucky dog!

[KBanks]

Mark - according to the just published club history, the superintednet Hal Hick oversaw a rebuilding of the greens beginning in 1990, "We dug out the shell of every green complex and rebuit it with layers of rock and sand and installed the new drainage systems and replaced the bent grass greens with a Tiff Dwarf Bermuda. Using the original Ross drawings and later technology we put the greens back exactly as they were before the start of the rebuilding program - with the same contours they had following Dick Wilson's work on them in 1948. At that time, Wilson had tilted them slightly from back to front, and had taken out some of the more severe slopes in places. Wilson also made some of the bunkers larger and had given them a flashed aspect in many spots."

It also states that Brian Silva was hired to renovate Seminole's bunkers and tees in 1994. He also filled in three of the 186 bunkers - next to greens eight, twelve and thirteen.

I interpret this to mean that they restored them to the same shapes that Ross built them but left in Wilson's changes on contouring.

This is an accurate quote from the club history, but I have to question whether James Dodson got the quote from Seminole's super down correctly. Has Seminole ever had bent grass greens? Didn't they convert from a more common bermuda to tifdwarf?

It is a great, great course and club.

Ken

[Dean Stokes]

Joseph,

Thanks for posting those great pictures.  This is a Ross course I have always wanted to play and those pictures whet my appetite even more. 

That IS a bar in locker room isn't it?  They have apparently thought of everything...

How deep is that bunker on hole #5?  In other words, how much elevation change is there from the bottom of the bunker up to the putting surface?

Probably 10 -12 feet from the bottom of the bunker. It is a tough one. The hole plays about 210 from the back, 185 front edge which is the number. The wind generally blows over the left shoulder off the ocean. Any shot not hit pure will pitch on the green and run in the right bunker leaving a downhill shot. A shot hit slightly long will go in the huge back bunker you cannot see. Probably one of the hardest par 3 greens to hit ( and stay on!!!) you could wish for. Same goes for #17 only playing 30 yards shorter but with a raised tee box.

[JC Jones]

JC and Chuck - Seminole is closed from May through the end of October so I'm not sure it's an advantage over Augusta.

Jeff - charm and good looks 

Nice.  I can play CD May - October then go to my winter home and play Seminole November - April.

I'll wake up soon, no worries...