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Sean_A

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Rolling Green New
« on: May 13, 2008, 04:57:15 PM »
Last, but not least, I met up with Mayday and Bill Dow for a game at Rolling Green.  I gotta say, that if there is a person more enthusiastic than Mayday about his course, then Lord help us!  Mayday seems to know every blade of grass on the course and revel in trying to retain or regain what Flynn produced.  Bill, well, he is quite simply one of the finest chaps you could hope to meet anytime anywhere.  It was a joy to watch him have at it and come back to the cart with a smile no matter the result.  

First things first.  The greens at RG were the toughest I saw on this trip - hands down.  I say this with the belief that they weren't rolling any faster than the others.  Its all about the slopes effecting putts and they just cannot be read.  One simply has to learn the greens.  Jeepers, is RG hilly or what?  In truth, it is probably a bit too hilly as many of the approaches seemed similar as uphill between bunkers.  The par 3s were very good and difficult.  I do admit to struggling round not least because of the shanks which was a bit more controlled, but also because there are a lot of tuff shots to hit.  I think we played the members tees and the course seemed every bit as difficult as Merion, maybe tougher.  I probably drove Mayday nuts with my comments that the club is missing a trick with not widening several fairways.  The opportunity is there.

#1 - A gentle opener with a wicked green.  I will stop mentioning the greens becasue they are all wicked.


Approach to #1


I really liked the 2nd hole.  Its a fairly long par 4.  The fairway is cool as it sheds balls to the right if one can't get onto the plateau.


Approach to #2


One can see the perils of a front pin pn this, the short par 3 3rd.  Many of the greens have this quality of almost being false fronts.


The 4th


This is the other look which is popular at RG - the sort of uphill approach to a green that can't fully be seen.


The 5th is a lovely hole which bends to the right.  This is the approach.


Another tuff par 3 of about 190 yards.  


I really didn't like the look of this par 5 - very clausterphobic.  In general, I though the par 5s were the weakest element of the course.  None were much better than average for a course of such high quality.


The hole does get better the closer you get to the green.  I think a load of trees could come out on this hole.


#8 is an awesome par 4 that will crush your spirit if you give it half a chance.  Again, fairway out to the right over the water should be there - loads of space for it.


This pic is so deceptive.  That green has to be 30 feet above the floor and the green is seriously sloped toward the fairway.


Approach to the par 5 9th.


The 10th is a cool runup Redan-like par 3 without the green.


I really liked #11.  You just bang a driver as far as you go on holiday and then pay attention to the approach.  I found this green to be a mystery.


A closer look for the approach.


#12 is a neat little hole.  Its best to layup, but I got bad advice from my caddy who said carry the bunker.  There is nothing to be gained by this play.  


A closer look at #12.


13 is an odd hole both visually and how it plays.  The drive is blind to a fairway which runs into rough.  This is the approach - which strikes me as quite an old school look.


A look at the 14th green - perhaps one of the most severe par 3s I have ever seen.  Its brutal!


#15 is a cool hole - though I wish the corridor wasn't such a long narrow thing.  


The approach to 15.  This really is one of the best holes on the course.


Along with # 10, I like the par3 16th a load.  


I am not sure about 17.  It seems to be lacking something.  It would probably be better as a shorter hole that is more easily reachable.  This shot is after the turn, but its a long whack to get home.  


On second thought, 18 is not a bad hole at all.  Its reachable with two long shots and the bunkering is decent.  Though, the hole has way too many trees.  That is Bill in the picture.  


That was my first experience of Flynn and to be fair, I came away with mixed feelings.  There are several very good holes, but the course didn't bowl me over.   Its probably a bit too hilly for my liking.  Also, I think I need to see the course more times to figure out the greens.  There were several putts I literally didn't have a clue about.  I think the course is good and shouldn't disappoint anyone who turns up for a game.  To me, this place has potential to be much better if fairways were widened and trees taken out.  The combo of crowded fairways and many severe uphill approaches really doesn't work together.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 01:40:16 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2008, 05:44:18 PM »
OK...now I am getting jealous! ;)  Sorry, can't help but be in awe of your amazing trip.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2008, 05:57:34 PM by Bryon Vincent »
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2008, 05:57:45 PM »
Sean:  Yes it was great to get back to Rolling Green, and it was fun to play with Mayday Mike Malone, and follow his commentary about the work he had put forth in restoring much of the old Flynn look.  The tree work was a special piece which I believe Jim Nagel was the architect involved.

I would love to see the course widened in numerous places, especially to bring the bunkers into play with the wonderful roll of the fairways.  That rough just stops the ball from getting there !

I also missed the white faces I remember from old Divotee matches years ago.  That was one of Flynn's trademarks.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2008, 10:31:27 PM »
Sean,

   Thanks for coming by. I think if you had hit the putting green you would have found the greens less confusing.
AKA Mayday

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2008, 01:12:16 AM »
What the hell is this caddy doing?


Robert_Ball

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2008, 01:41:12 AM »
What the hell is this caddy doing?

Using binoculars to spot tee shots, maybe?  Pretty distracting if you ask me.  Since he doesn't appear to have any bags maybe he was acting as a forecaddie for the group.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2008, 08:33:54 AM »
RG is a helluva golf course, and is now in really great condition thanks to the new greenkeeper.   

I too would love to see the fairways widened and some fairway bunkers put back into play.

In a way, RG's tree issue reminds me a bit of Oak Hill in Rochester, which will be hosting the Sr PGA next week.  Both could stand some more tree management.  Do we have any early photographs of the course?   I'd love to see it as designed by Flynn.

One hole that's not pictured is #14, a really difficult par 3.  I think it plays about 230 from the tips.  It plays over a ravine to a really wonderful green complex.  In fact, the ravine is deep enough that they've built a walking bridge, which I've never used due to my fear of heights ;)

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2008, 09:57:26 AM »
Wonderful photographs - I'm a sucker for parkland golf.

Mayday, do you ever tire of what appear to be unrelenting uphill approach shots?

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2008, 10:06:06 AM »
Mike - they don't just appear to be unrelenting - they ARE unrelenting uphill approach shots.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2008, 10:19:04 AM »
 I never tire of anything at anytime playing this course. I think many of these elevated greens are actually approached from nearly the same level. For instance, on #6 and#14 the tees are almost at the same level, but you must carry the ball most of the way to get there. If we recovered the "bib" of fairway that should be in front of #6 then one could play the hole as designed. It allows for some possibility of bouncing it on. #4, #8, #12, #15 are always significant uphill shots. As you play the course you find ways of bouncing the ball onto most of the greens.


    I find that you have many different lies for the approaches to the elevated greens and it tests you. You can be sidehill, downhill,somewhat flat, or uphill. Each shot requires a different approach. It hardly ever is like hitting off the driving range!!

    As the seasons change the firmness or softness also adds a different dimension.

      I play alot of golf and have never been bored for a second playing here.

    
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 10:33:35 AM by michael_malone »
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2008, 10:20:24 AM »
BTW, I think the caddy is giving the safe sign.
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2008, 10:30:33 AM »
 The fact that so many of the greens are up above you also has a huge impact on your short game. We have many deep bunkers which stress you with a blind bunker shot. You can be above the green for a delicate downhill chip or maybe a bladed wedge. You may need to go sideways on a chip, usually on #12 if you are in the back of the green and the pin is back. If you are short on the uphill fairway approaches you have that difficult to execute shot that so many dig in too deeply. So, you may try to keep it low but then the distance control gets tough.

    I guess I would say you can't dial-it-in on this course. You must be willing to create a shot on every hole.


   The reason I want us to recover #7 to its original playing area is that is the ONLY time you can be 40-60 yards from the green and have a downhill/sidehill shot to a green below you!!
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 10:32:18 AM by michael_malone »
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2008, 11:20:17 AM »
 As to the tree problem on #7 and #15, there is ample room in the landing area on #7. It's more visual than actual. It gets into the head of my constant playing partner as well. We removed trees near the creek in the landing area and I  could see more removed there. It is a short par 5 so that is how it is protected.The creek becomes more intimidating as more trees are removed.
   The real problem is the two remaining evergreens across the creek that stop the ball from going up the hill as was designed.

     #15 was carved out of the tress by Flynn. This is the only short par four where trees become part of the challenge on the drive. I would take out trees on the RIGHT to allow a less claustrophobic feeling, enable an angled fairway, and bring the creek more into play. The trees on the left provide an excellent dogleg and protect #18. Of course, that doesn't include the two new trees by the caddy which should have been planted much more to the left within the existing tree line.
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2008, 11:28:54 AM »
 You are preaching to the choir when you recommend fairway widening. What I find interesting is whether the original straight but wider approach should be recovered or the new concept of expanding the width based on the contours of the ground and the use of modern irrigation. When the course was designed there wasn't irrigation and the mowers were quite different.

    I think Flynn would think more creatively about fairways today with the changes in technology.


   I think the course would be more challenging with recontoured fairways. This could be a problem for that wimp, Sean. ;D
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2008, 11:30:51 AM »
 Now , Michael Dennis Patrick is off to our annual Irish/Italian Day.
AKA Mayday

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2008, 01:38:13 PM »
You are preaching to the choir when you recommend fairway widening. What I find interesting is whether the original straight but wider approach should be recovered or the new concept of expanding the width based on the contours of the ground and the use of modern irrigation. When the course was designed there wasn't irrigation and the mowers were quite different.

    I think Flynn would think more creatively about fairways today with the changes in technology.


   I think the course would be more challenging with recontoured fairways. This could be a problem for that wimp, Sean. ;D

Mayday

Come on, you have to admit that the property is hillier than the ideal.  What goes down must come up - assuming you aren't going to play yer way to China.  We all have our likes, dislikes and indifferences.  I do like wild courses, but I often associate wild with some space to open the shoulders.  It seemed to me thatt the more elevation change involved, the less space there was for hitting.  Is this the case?

Without a shadow of doubt the part of the course which really threw me was the greens.  I don't think I have ever seen anything quite like them.  I know you said I gave myself some doozies, but I don't see how they could be read.  BTW - that isn't a bad thing.  The best part of the course (including the excellent set of 3s) are the greens.  They were the most interesting I played on this trip.  I don't even think the trees were that big a deal.  Sure, a load could come out, but some of those are really nice trees and its a shame to cut them down - so I can see why they are still there. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2008, 03:32:18 PM »
What the hell is this caddy doing?

Using binoculars to spot tee shots, maybe?  Pretty distracting if you ask me.  Since he doesn't appear to have any bags maybe he was acting as a forecaddie for the group.

Robert,

Binoculars to find balls was definitely not what I was thinking.  He looks like he could be doing the chicken dance.

Cheers,
Jordan

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2008, 03:45:11 PM »
Sean thanks for all these great reports.  I always feel your captions are pith and entertianing and at least as good as your photo's. With your reports we always get a little more than the sum of the holes shown/diccussed.

Can I ask a really Naff question.  What about the conditioning as compared to GB&I, travelling 'the other way' what thoughts did you have?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2008, 06:45:07 PM »
Sean thanks for all these great reports.  I always feel your captions are pith and entertianing and at least as good as your photo's. With your reports we always get a little more than the sum of the holes shown/diccussed.

Can I ask a really Naff question.  What about the conditioning as compared to GB&I, travelling 'the other way' what thoughts did you have?

Tony

It depends on what floats yer boat for conditioning.  Generally, I find American greens quicker and fairways lusher.  Rough tends to be rough no matter where you are - its all different and usually non conducive for proper golf.  The UK is more lean and mean and seems to have courses which cross the line to not very clever more often than in The States.  Now, for 2-4 months in the summer/fall, depending on weather, I find that the UK courses are much better with the maintenance meld.  Greens may not be any quicker, but they are firmer (which I believe to be better).  Having said this, I think the conditioning of UK courses has deteriorated over the last 15 years.  This is probably why there is a big push toward bents/fescues on links and more heather on the heathlands.  I think all of these promote firmer (and cheaper/easier to maintain) conditions over the long run. 

I have to say that the greens at UofM were spot on perfect.  The best I have seen last June at Nairn.  Its such a rare happening that it gets etched in my mind.  Having said that, Merion and Rolling Green weren't far behind.  I think they were a goos speed given the conditions and there wasn't a lot of bobble.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

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