When did Ross stop imagining?

[John Kavanaugh]

Dreams can be exciting but it seems that at one point in his career Ross started designing in his sleep.  Is there a pattern showing how he eventually developed the templates that appear on course after course or is this an illusion created over years of maintenance unification.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

Ron Whitten once studied that but never published the article. But, lets face it, Ross was a machine as much as JN, RTJ, etc.  It was more about getting them out the door at the busiest point of his design history and I suspect, but don't really know, that the minute he got in such demand, the ability to be individually creative on every job started going down, just like EVERY other gca who got successful.

[John Kavanaugh]

What course or event put him over the top?

[Brad Klein]

What templates would that be?

For someone who did an awful lot of work, Ross did manage to route some of the most efficiently sequenced golf courses ever, wasting little ground, fitting doglegs in, and making use of available acreage on square or otherwise tricky plots of ground. That's not close to having template holes.

It helped that he had the same small design team during the bulk of his career: field associates Water Hatch and J.B. McGovern, and dutiful civil engineer, Walter Irving Johnson, churning out plans from the Pinehurst office.

[John Kavanaugh]

What templates would that be?

I think this is an example of a template that is commonly seen on a Ross course.  I might call it a deja vu hole because it feels like I have seen it before.

[Brad Klein]

If that's the best you can do to assert the case for templates I don't think the prosecution has much of a case.

My bet is that slope at LuLu was manufactured with a big piece of equipment long after Ross left the scene.

[John_Cullum]

Brian Silva received a fair amount of criticism after "restoring" the punchbowl green at Augusta CC. The "Ross experts" I know said Ross didn't do punchbowl greens.

That looks alot like a punchbowl to me

[Jeff_Brauer]

Brad,

I recall (and it was a long time ago) that Whitten found the same par 3 on 73 Ross courses.  There were similar numbers for a couple of par 4's etc.

Over 400 courses, it would be hard not to repeat some feature designs, even if routings were very well done.  Not that its a problem I wouldn't like to have.

John,

In Golf Has Never Failed Me, Ross points out that the true punch bowl is a problem, and there is a picture of Inverness showing how its more practical to have a swale behind the green to assist drainage.  (From memory, I don't have the book in front of me) So, I can understand where the perception that Ross didn't do punch bowls, at least later in his career, comes from.  However, he must have done some early to point out the problems inherent in them.

[John Kavanaugh]

This is from Lulu.  The thread is currently up on the first page.  Maybe my problem is that this is a Ron Forse restoration and I recently played Pine Needles.  I can't seem to get past that even though I have never been there it feels like I have seen it all before.

[Brad Klein]

John K, there's nothing remotely like this hole at Pine Needles.

Jeff Brauer, you're going to have to do better than claiming 73 similar par-3s, even if referencing such an eminent authority as Whitten. The claim is just too abstract. If you mean holes that are in the range of 135-150 with bunkers front right and back left or something, that's not going to work.

Obviously, Ross had a limited repertoire, esp, with his par-5s in the 480-yard range. And Hatch had some template or regularly repeated greens (with catchers mits back left and right and a ridge down the middle), but that doesn't prove a whole lot.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Brad,

I hate go quote or misquote Ron at all, but if I recall, his conclusion was based on seeing similar green plans in the Tuft libraries with bunkers in a certain pattern.  I don't know if that "works" or not.  Whether they are templates is a matter of opinion.  Its even another matter of opinion as to how bad using templates is, i.e. Raynor did okay, so why not Ross?

From my other thread, you can tell I think most gca's - yours truly included - are far more repititious than original.  Just fact, not any kind of snide spin that JK started this thread with.  I do think that repitition and the reasons behind it are a worthy topic of discussion on a gca board.  The snide spin, not so much.....

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Over 400 courses, that would be 1600 par threes.  That is only a little over 4.5%.  Does that really qualify as a template or does in simply fall into some kind of reasonable margin of error?

[John Kavanaugh]

From my other thread, you can tell I think most gca's - yours truly included - are far more repititious than original.  Just fact, not any kind of snide spin that JK started this thread with.  I do think that repitition and the reasons behind it are a worthy topic of discussion on a gca board.  The snide spin, not so much.....

Snide spin was not intended.  Is there any dispute that he designed courses from rudimentary topo's without ever visiting the site?  One of my original questions is what course or event gave him such a reputation that he could get away with this method.

[George Pazin]

This thread's an interesting contrast to Tom MacWood's Ross and bunkering thread.

Kind of begs the question, did Ross stop imagining, or did the folks taking care of his courses stop imagining?

[Mike_Young]

IMHO, I dont think Dr was ever a big one to imagine.....I think he  had a system, be it a macro system, that worked and it allowed him to work as he did.  From what I can tell his routings were his strongpoint and he incorporated his strategies within.....and in incorporating strategy he had certain green details that he liked to use.  Sure they may be different at different courses but I think I have seen many cases where one could tell that he had the same intent.  I think this system was good and allowed him to do the amount of work he did.  AND at the same time it is also the reason I don't think clubs should become so goo gooed over having a DR course....in 325 cases.  I mean what if Henry Ford had a different assembly line for each of his model Ts.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Over 400 courses, that would be 1600 par threes.  That is only a little over 4.5%.  Does that really qualify as a template or does in simply fall into some kind of reasonable margin of error?

I doubt that DR would do the same par 3 twice on one course. If Ron looked at all 400 plan sets, that puts the % at 18 or so.  And, the percentage could be double or triple that if he only looked at a representative sample of his plans.

But, good point, though.  Over 400 courses, 73 repititions isn't that signifigant.

[Brad Klein]

Jeff, however many sets of plans Whitten looked at (of only about 240 that exist at all), I'd bet that fewer than half of them that many are detailed enough for him to have discerned much about the hole(s) in question. And if he's basing his analysis on a view of hole plans on paper, then his conclusion is watered down a little since it doesn't include topography, as the vast majority of extant plans were not laid out in such topo fashion. So the judgment of three-dimensional holes is based on two-dimensional evidence.

Did Ross repeat himself? Sure. But probably not enough to make this particular charge stick.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Brad,

I don't think he looked at 400. I know there aren't that many in the Tufts archives.  So, its possible that 73 out of 200 puts the same par 3 on about 30% of Ross' courses.

I agree that he was repetitive, but not objectionably so.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike Y, Jeff B

Given how often routing is mentioned as one of Ross' strengths, I've always wondered exactly what that meant and how it manifested itself. He worked on a lot of courses, which I asume means he worked with lot of average and mediocre sites. He didn't have to worry about fitting houses in there. So what did he do on these mediocre (mainly flat?) sites that was so special? The short walks from greens to tees would be pretty much givens, as would holes in different directions and good drainage. What demonstrates that routing was his strength? I don't know much at all about Ross, so it's a sincere (if simplistic) question. 
Thanks

Peter

[Jeff_Brauer]

The man knew how to get in and out of corners better than any gca ever.

[mark chalfant]

Ive been fortunate to  play several dozen Ross courses in different regions and varied sites and terrain. The words  that come to mind for me are elegant,  artistic, at peace with the land. The routing mastery he displayed at Longmeadow, Brookside, Franklin hills,and Essex County is timeless. The green complexes are also exemplary.

Vermeer had a formula too, and its possible that some of our Pennsylvania brothers might focus on 3 of 4 prosaic painitings, instead of the 20-25 timelsss masterpieces by Vermeer ,to prove that Thomas Eakins was a  superior creative genius to  the painter  from Delft

[Ken Moum]

Mike Y, Jeff B

Given how often routing is mentioned as one of Ross' strengths, I've always wondered exactly what that meant and how it manifested itself. He worked on a lot of courses, which I asume means he worked with lot of average and mediocre sites.

I am far from an expert on Ross, but I play what is reputed to be one of his designs several times a week.

And one of the things that convinces me that it's the work of a master is how he fit 18 holes into the property. It's Shawnee Country Club in Topeka, KS, and you can see it on http://www.golfflyover.com.

The routing plays best in a southeast wind, which we have almost every day during the prime golf season. Despite being a fairly tight piece of property, you rarely see someone from another hole in your fairway. It has a good mix of lengths, with par threes of (roughly, from the white tees) 135, 165, 175, 200; and par fours from 310 to 450.

As it stands today, I suspect the strategy isn't much like it was 90 years ago. Nevertheless, it's challenging for most of us, and more than a little fun to play.

I do wish I had some way to find out what the greens looked like, because they are now very small and very round.

K

[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff, Ken - thanks.

Jeff, I think I understand what you mean by getting in and out of corners, but are there many different ways of doing that?  Was it easier in Ross' day to do that?

Peter

[Jeff_Brauer]

Peter,

I can never seem to replicate Ross' genius in that area, primarily because I wouldn't space my greens and tees as close together as he would in those days.  Even "cheating" by today's standards, he had a neat kind of way of using corners.

[michael j fay]

I do not believe that Mr. Ross had any templates.

My count puts the number of Ross courses at 420 (designs). That is 7,560 holes. I believe that the patterns emerged as he designer more and more. The work of his major Associates (Hatch, McGovern, Aeneus Ross and later Maples) is very much like his own. He saw a great number of his courses in one form or another.

Do some of his ho;es repeat?

Sure, there is an uphill short par four on many of his courses, often near the end of the round where he would rise toward the high elevation for the finishing hole tee. He built many end of the earth short fours, uphill and blind with a nasty green. His par threes range from 87 yards to 246 yards. Many of his courses had two short, one medium and one long. His long par threes are rather distinctive and easily stand up to whatever is being built today.

Ross just plain used the earth to create the golf course. If something was in his way and he could move it, he did if he needed to. Most of the time he just employed whatever natural features he could find.

One little nine hole Ross course, Petersham CC, has one feature on the property a hill of some 40 feet in elevation change. Ross used the hill on six of the nine holes on the course creating a challenging routing from little whole cloth. Two of the holes not involved with the hill take the player out to and back from the hill.

His par 5's ranged from 450 yards to over 670 yards (CC of Asheville). As Brad Klein mentioned he did design many 485 yard par 5's. I believe he had an element of risk reward in most if not all of them. They make exceptional long par fours today.

Ross probably built some 415 golf courses in his career from 1901 to 1948, three hundred and seventy seven of those courses are in play today the vast majority with their original routing. I've played 247 of his designs and can honestly say I have never seen two holes that were identical. That tells me that if he was working from templates, he hid it pretty well.