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Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2008, 11:50:11 AM »
Best Par 3 - #4 - i love the enormous hole in the ground short right.  Well done green ties in to the surrounds great.  The front bunkers and back left opening work very well.

Best Par 4 - #14 - Wild green - great fairway - good choice off the tee & I drove the green and made the putt against Huckaby...
Alternates (1!,2!,10!)

Best Par 5 - #16 - Wonderfully incredible site for a hole.  Dramatic tee shot, Challenging 2nd - I once layed up in an arroyo - wild green.  Matt Ward once paced off the fairway width - that counts for a point too.  :)
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2008, 12:22:18 PM »
Par 3 : #4. Left side of green hidden, bowl on right, lots of options depending on the wind conditions. A slightly different feel from the rest of the course.

Par 4: #14. Again with the options. I got to about 10 feet short of the green by aiming over the mound (thanks to my local playing partner's advice), otherwise I would have hit an iron near the wash on the left). I'd love to play this one in a few different winds. Probably a very fickle mistress.

Par 5: #16. I generally don't like tight par 5's, but at that altitude one has the option of playing three shorter shots to get home. I was playing the best golf of my life that day and hit the green in 2 with a 5-wood - not the result I would expect if I played there again. With repeat plays, I would think one could figure out a consistently effective scoring approach on this hole, despite its apparent difficulty during one's initial playing experiences.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tom Huckaby

Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2008, 12:26:24 PM »
Re #16:  "apparent difficulty in initial playing experiences"????

What's that?

Tom "eagle the first time playing it, birdie the second" Huckaby

 ;D ;D ;D
ps - I love it when Black Mesa gets discussed... I restrain myself from touting my moments of glory.  I believe I deserve kudos for waiting this long on this thread.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2008, 01:12:07 PM »
Re #16:  "apparent difficulty in initial playing experiences"????

What's that?

Tom "eagle the first time playing it, birdie the second" Huckaby


My point was that the hole isn't impossibly difficult, and that birdies are there for the taking if you are Tom Huckaby or better. ;D

If I were to play it for the first time today, I would probably hook my first drive in the left-hand gorge, drop, punch something to 150 yards, sky an iron to the front fringe, and three putt for double. I think most mortals would have similar troubles, but hopefully they would find a way to enjoy the humiliation.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tom Huckaby

Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2008, 01:15:29 PM »
Kyle:

I know, I know.  It's a tough hole and a great hole and is certainly confusing.  I just caught some brainless lightning there on one great 36 hole day... and I do love to remember it, and tout it.

 ;D


Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2008, 01:31:01 PM »
My wife and I played Wild Horse and Black Mesa on consecutive days earlier this month. I think comparing the two is a fair apples-to-apples exercise, especially since we had 30-plus MPH winds both days.

Wild Horse is not as scenic, of course (though more aromatic; the neighborhood cows seemed to be incontinent), but I think we both found Wild Horse a bit more fun to play because of its extraordinary width and ground game possibilities. In those winds, I was faced again and again with low-iron punch shots into the wind, and attempts to land wedges short of downwind greens in an effort to keep the ball from rolling through the green. I was rewarded several times when I was able to pull those shots off, and punished several times when I was not successful.

For me, the biggest difficulty at Wild Horse was the lightning fast greens. Downhill and especially downwind/downhill putts and chips simply would not stop anywhere near the hole. The contours of the greens at Wild Horse were not as severe as they are at Black Mesa, fortunately, or I'd have had several instances of perpetual putting.

I don't think the ground game is as much of an option at Black Mesa, despite the high winds we faced, because of the elevation changes and more prevalent hazards. Your ball is going to have to spend more time in the air at Black Mesa, but the good news is that once it lands, especially downwind, that sucker's going to run. I actually appreciated the slower green speeds at Black Mesa, especially with some of the wild green contours, because the wind would have made faster greens infinitely more difficult.

I agree with Lou Duran that Black Mesa #1 is not a good opening hole. The ridge one must clear to reach the fairway forces you to put the ball up in the air to clear it, so you're immediately at the mercy of the winds. After that, however, I found the holes to be imaginative and often breathtaking, with consistently entertaining greens. I had the same experience Matt Ward did on #8, hitting a full driver from the elevated tee to the par 3 green below, and barely finishing pin high.

We walked the front nine, and it wasn't bad except for the climbs to the 2nd and 8th tees. The elevation was something of a factor for this 56-year-old Minnesotan, and with dark weather to the west (hell, it could have been in California, given how far you can see from those peaks), we opted for a cart on the back nine. Fortunately, the rain stayed away.

Favorite BM par 4: #7. Great short par 4 with many choices off the tee, and a green that demands you hit the proper tier.

Favorite par 3: #15. I had more fun here than on any other hole. The wind dictated a shot left of the green (away from the water) that bounced hard to the right, kicked onto the steeply banked green and rolled up to within 10 feet of the hole.

Favorite par 5: While the steeply uphill #16 is spectacular, and its tiered green an architectural wonder, I thought it was terribly narrow with poor layup options. I preferred #6, a downhill hole where the ground game can be used to go for the green in two shots if the wind is in your favor.

Where would I rank Black Mesa among publics I've played? Somewhere below Pebble Beach, Pasatiempo and Wild Horse. I liked it as much as Spyglass, better than World Woods Pine Barrens, The Harvester and Talking Stick North.

I know Matt will disagree with this, but I solidly prefer Sutton Bay to Black Mesa. There are aesthetic similarities, but I think Sutton Bay gives you more options in the wind.

 
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Matt_Ward

Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2008, 02:41:47 PM »
Mike N:

Interesting choices.

While I do like the par-4 14th I'd opt for the par-4 7th -- the more demanding tee shot and more demanding approach - especially when the pin is cut hard to the right.

On the par-3 side -- the 15th takes the prize by a narrow margin over the 11th and 8th holes. The 15th is very demanding in order to get the approach on the correct side of the spine that runs through the green. Those missing to the left will face an even more challenging recovery option than those who miss right. Extremely vexing pin placements are also common there -- whether front, back, left or right. I like the 11th a lot but the only real challenging pin placement is in the extreme rear.

On the par-5 front -- while I like the 16th a great deal I only wish the gap -- the one I measured at no more than 17-19 yards from rough line to rough line would be a bit more wider to encourage the bold play from the tee. As a result, most players would likely hit short of that narrow area and proceed to play the hole in a three-shot fashion. In my first time at Black Mesa I smoked a tee shot through that tiny opening and had a short iron home to the target. When I look back on it now -- the risk was way too high for the tiny gain I received.

Completely concur with you Mike on the awesome beauty that hole provides and the clever way the routing was done to get out of that area of the property and set the terms for the final two holes.

If I had to choose a par-5 I'd likely pick the 3rd because although it comes early in the round there's plenty of interesting options. If the prevailing southwest winds are not blowing especially hard long hitters can get there in two strong blows. The approach - generally played with the 3rd shot and roughly from 100-125 yards in is not ever easy. This is especially so when the pin is hard right. It's very easy to skip over the green and land in the rear and face a most daunting downhill chip back to a green sliding away from you.

Gents:

I will add another thought -- the most interesting and scary of tee shots is at the 10th -- simply need to work the ball in the proper direction and have full faith in your swing to provide it.

Rich S:

Enjoyed your comments ... a few retorts ...

Sutton Bay v Black Mesa -- yes, we do agree big time.

SB is a one-dimensional routing -- out and back. You catch the same wind current going one way and the reverse the other way. BM constantly moves around with the only continuous pattern is from the 5th through 7th holes. When it comes to design variety, complexity of the overall routing and holes and the needed dexterity of shots required to overcome all of that BM wins in my mind. To each his own though.

Those who prefer WH likely will cite the width argument because BM is a bit more particular on where you land your tee shot. Keep in mind, that those who do bitch and moan about BM's playability (not you mind you) often play the wrong tees and thereafter whine about the so-called "unfairness" of the course.

In regards to the 1st hole -- you make it sound like clearing the high mounding on the right side is too much to overcome. I disagree. One doesn't need to hit a Nicklausian tee shot that will float perilously in the wind current of the day.

As superintendent Pat Brockwell rightly said -- keeping green speeds at fair levels is crucial to playability of BM. If the greens were moved to something along the lines of a 11 then the level of demands would be extremely high and likely unfair for nearly all levels of players.

I do concede the ground game is better suited at WH but the totality of the overall design, complexity of the routing and hole variation in combination with the higher level shot values you need to play at BM makes the case for me. Again, to each his own.

Let's talk again on #1 -- too many people play the wrong tees when playing there and as a result the moaning groaning starts. For those who do play the correct tees -- the carry and visual imagery is meant to intimidate most players. The reality is that the carry is not that far and secondly you have a ton of ROOM to the right side -- much more than what the image at the tee indicates.

I have been able to hit driver at #1 and work the shot through the cluster of bunkers that hug the entire left side and the lone one that creeps in from the right. Played in this manner the shot leaves a very short pitch. Again, much of the feeling against #1 rests with the opening shot element. Credit Baxter Spann for the psyche job he's created there.

Rick, one last thing -- BM is walkable -- although there are moments where a bit of climbing is needed. I do agree with all of your best hole choices -- my only concern on the 16th is the extreme narrowness in that specific choke point I referenced.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts ... one last thing would BM be one of your top 10 public courses you've ever played ?






Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2008, 02:59:07 PM »
Matt:

Yes, easily in the top 10. Jeff Brauer's two recent Northern Minnesota creations, the Quarry and the Wilderness, would be on that list, too. Ahead of or behind Black Mesa? I'd like to play BM in a 20 mph or less wind before making that call.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2008, 03:00:47 PM »
Rich S:

Enjoyed your comments ... a few retorts ...

Sutton Bay v Black Mesa -- yes, we do agree big time.

SB is a one-dimensional routing -- out and back. You catch the same wind current going one way and the reverse the other way.

I presume you meant that you and "Rich" (sic) disagree big-time.

But at any rate:

"Out and back" encompasses at least two dimensions. And the Out and the Back include a whole bunch of different directions.

Look at the aerial view of Sutton Bay, if you don't believe that.

You must have missed some of the routing subtleties during your whirlwind tour.

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2008, 03:26:11 PM »
I'm not sure I understand the love for #7 at Black Mesa.  Its a pretty simple hole, driver over the green onto the backstop and a relatively easy up and down for birdie, at least in my experience (if Huckaby can gloat, so can I ;)).  This was part of the ham and egg show that was too much for the smack-talking Morrissett/Spann team (one guess who the smack-talker on that team was :)).

Cheers,
Brad   

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #60 on: May 23, 2008, 05:25:06 PM »

shit... I went 0 for 3.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2008, 05:26:59 PM »
I can most definitely attest as to Brad's prowess on 7 AND to the pasting we laid on golf's most beloved and the architect of Black Mesa.  Good times, good times....

 ;)

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2008, 05:48:15 PM »
Favorites:

Par 3: #4 - by quite a bit, for me. Not entirely sure why, gotta try to think of a way to put it into words.

Par 4: #17 - despite my butchering the hole each time I played it, I really love the skyline green and the crazy bunkering.

Par 5: #12 - again by quite a bit. I just loved the way the fairway melded into the giant green. 16 was just a bit too high on the quirk meter for me (an affirmed quirk lover).
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #63 on: May 23, 2008, 05:56:28 PM »

Par 5: #12 - again by quite a bit. I just loved the way the fairway melded into the giant green. 16 was just a bit too high on the quirk meter for me (an affirmed quirk lover).

Aww, c'mon George.  The load you left in your drawers after nearly falling to your death from the back tees while teeing off was the real deal-breaker for 16, wasn't it?  :)

Cheers,
Brad

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #64 on: May 23, 2008, 06:18:17 PM »

Brad,

     I had forgotten all about that!  Man, George was one pale fella.


Matt_Ward

Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #65 on: May 23, 2008, 06:22:00 PM »
Rick:

I salute you for keeping an open mind because when wind velocity reaches a certain point it can be extremely difficult to really understand the nature of just about any course. In the case of holes with a headwind you are forced to play 4-5 clubs more and the reverse with a tailwind.

I think when you play Black Mesa again the sheer nature of the details will emerge if Mother Nature cooperates. Having a competitive wind velocity of 10-15 mph is one thing but when it goes beyond that it becomes nothing more than mega extremes and that can cause a total sense of proportion inoperable on that particular day.

Dan K:

I didn't miss much during my "whirlwind tour" -- the one dimensional nature of out and back at Sutton Bay really turned me off although certain individual holes is very good in spot and clearly the scenery / isolation is well done by Graham Marsh and folks. The holes had wind going one way for a number of holes and then the wind went the exact opposite way for a number of holes. There are very few holes which run counter to that pattern (see exceptions such as #1, somewhat with #17 and clearly #18).

Clearly, the final routing was a matter for the powers-that-be there to determine. I rather play layouts in which the wind patterns -- are accounted for and factored into the final land plan. A good example of that is what Doak did with The Rawls Course in Lubbock, TX. Wind speeds can whip through that property but the overall course is quite fun to play because respective holes are always moving quite noticeably in different directions.

Brad S:

Here's my take on #7 -- you have to skillfully place your tee shot and there's a range of clubs you need to think about before excuting. The perfect angle is also needed to keep the approach from being burned by the tougher angles you might get.

You say easy drive over the green - yes, the hole can be driven but the backstop behind the green is no bargain in all instances. Try getting "stuck" up there and working your approach with one foot considerably below the other.

I know you were being comical with your post but all kidding aside I see the 7th as one of the very best short par-4's in all of public golf in the USA - especially when the hole is played from the tips.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2008, 07:24:07 PM »
Favorites:


Par 5: #12 - again by quite a bit. I just loved the way the fairway melded into the giant green. 16 was just a bit too high on the quirk meter for me (an affirmed quirk lover).

You mean #13?

#12 is a par 4 on the card.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2008, 06:15:30 PM »
My wife and I were first off at Black Mesa at 7:30 on Saturday and quickly put a few holes between us and the group behind. We had the course to ourselves.                                                                             
I always walk Black Mesa carrying my bag, not only because it is great exercise but also because it enables me to feel all the architectural detail and to better soak in the sheer beauty of the ground.

What a joy it is to play there ! Admittedly, it takes probably at least five rounds to know what to hit where, but once that comfort level is reached, and the multi-layered greens become somewhat mastered, Black Mesa is great fun. And its $64 walking green fee makes it a must, IMO, for any GCA member going to Santa Fe.

Pat Brockwell

Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #68 on: May 26, 2008, 08:36:12 PM »
I must say, GCA posters on this thread are some of the most enlightened and intelligent souls on this plane of existence.   As for the first hole, I must defend.  The opening shot is the perfect statement for Black Mesa.  The shot reqired is not difficult.  From the blue tees something between 180 and 220 yds offers a 100yd wide target, and leaves an approach of 100 to 130 yds.  It must be airborne to clear the ridge and pond.  The requirement to not hit a grounder off the first tee isn't too extreme IMO.  The rest of the round follows the lead set by that shot, play within yourself and know where you should try to go (Matt, this speaks to the challenge point off of the 16th tee, no?) The 1st hole goes from 100yds wide to about 16 yds if you try to get inside 100 yds.  I think our 1st requres though, humility and the ability to keep the distractions at bay.  So does the rest of the course.  Did I mention that Baxter Spann is also thoughtful, humble and undistracted? Hmmm...

Pat Brockwell

Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2008, 08:47:39 PM »
BTW, GCAers please give me a shout when your here, I really enjoy meeting and visiting with the right kind of crazy, the pro shop staff can usually contact me, or let me know ahead of time, contact info on our website.  ;D Pat.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2008, 08:34:09 AM »
I'll second Pat's defense of the opening shot. It was a bold architectural decision to leave the natural mounds. The alternative would've been a watered down version of mediocrity found on so many designs.

Black Mesa is unique, challenging and the greens are as thought provoking as any of the country's best. The critique that they are over the top, designwise,  would ring truer if I had not witnessed so many birdies made by first time visitors. Also, anytime you spend that much extra time putting, after you've completed the hole for a score, is the tell tale sign of interesting.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2008, 08:40:16 AM »

I must admit at first I was turned off by the opening tee shot at Black Mesa, it was very visually intimidating for the first shot of the day.

However it really is a simple shot and the second time around it was just fine.  So, put me down as a fan of the first hole and the whole course.




Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2008, 08:58:06 AM »
Given my single play, my favorites would be: Par 3 (11th, followed by 4); Par 4 (14th, follwowed closely by 7); Par 5 (6th, followed by 16). 

Ranks Top 10 in my list of U.S. publics, and the more I talk about it the higher up it moves. 

Matt_Ward

Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #73 on: May 27, 2008, 09:43:54 AM »
Pat:

I can understand the narrowness element you outlined but the issue is whether the player will take the bait on a hole like #16 and attempt to get a tee shot through that extremely narrow alleyway. In real terms -- I don't see that happening.

The percentage play -- nearly 90% + times is to hit short of that bottleneck and proceed from there. As a result the versatility of the hole becomes fairly predictable.

My only suggestion is that the area be widened to ay 24 or 25 so yards -- it's still gong to look really narrow from the tip tees -- but it will be the right bait to see if any adventurous player is willing to take.

Gents:

One other thing to mention -- one of the best approaches you can play at BM is when the pin is in the extreme rear of the 2nd hole. Getting a ball ALL THE WAY back there is no small feat.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #74 on: May 27, 2008, 10:35:23 AM »
Getting the ball to the rear of #2 is a piece of cake. All Pat has to do is put the pin in the front.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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