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Mike_DeVries

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Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2008, 10:26:37 PM »
Bill,

Yes, it is applicable to those courses and many others - MacKenzie, Golden Age or not.  Putting should be about having an opportunity to make a stroke at the ball, not just starting it on a roll and praying that it will stay on the green.  Let the grass grow a little, keep the surface firm and rolling true, tuck the pins on something other than dead flat, and we can have some fun while having opportunities to putt the ball from above, below, or aside the hole.

Best,
Mike

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2008, 01:49:28 AM »
As someone who knows the course and who very much likes it, I really have no disagreement with Mike.  One thing in particular that he said bears more discussion; like so many golf courses, UMGC was victimized by careless mowing patterns that reduced the expansive original green dimensions.

Yes they took down a lot of the most-awful trees and yest there are more that should go.  I truly agree.

But I'm having a hard time picturing where greenside bunker work changed the grade of any putting surfaces.  Mike do you have any specifics on that?

I should add, as I mentioned above;  Hills' bunker work made the bunkering "better."  Could it be better still?  Sure.  I don't know if U of M's bunkers ever looked like Cypress Point's (I don't think so) but if that is the goal, I'm all for it.  Maybe another $1m gift would do it. ;)

Mike mentioned, quite rightly, the course/clubhouse/maintenance split.  The one thing that makes me envious of our poor cousins up the road in East Lansing is their superb turfgrass management program.  MSU's Forest Akers Golf Course (a 36-hole complex now) is a decidedly lesser layout on much more average land, and yet they do an infinitely better job of maintaining it.

Chuck,

Let's take the 6th green -- a great, fun hole with a really cool green.  They "fixed" drainage in the back left fringe and off the green to keep water from running across the green -- by doing so they took away the back left flagstick location that used to be there by significantly altering the grades.  There is a 6-7% slope on the back section of green that will be too radical if the green speed gets up at all, but with the added space that used to be there, the greens could run fast and still provide options and fun (for the record, I don't think the course's greens should ever run faster than 10 and if they were 9, firm, and rolling true, then you could pin many areas that are unavailable today -- that is basically a general statement/philosophy about green speed).

Hope that helps.

Mike

Mike

I am not sure what you mean by back left on #6.  I would call the hole location we played back left - look at the pic on the 1st page of this thread.  No doubt it is a severe placement because in many spots its impossible to putt directly or indirectly to that location.  Its also severe because as you say the slope is very difficult to stop the ball creep and there is very little room to keep the ball below the hole there.  I do agree that the green speeds should not be reaching double digits at UofM.  There are just too many severe slopes in which putting off the green or not being able to putt within 10 feet would become commonplace. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2008, 02:27:04 AM »
As someone who knows the course and who very much likes it, I really have no disagreement with Mike.  One thing in particular that he said bears more discussion; like so many golf courses, UMGC was victimized by careless mowing patterns that reduced the expansive original green dimensions.

Yes they took down a lot of the most-awful trees and yest there are more that should go.  I truly agree.

But I'm having a hard time picturing where greenside bunker work changed the grade of any putting surfaces.  Mike do you have any specifics on that?

I should add, as I mentioned above;  Hills' bunker work made the bunkering "better."  Could it be better still?  Sure.  I don't know if U of M's bunkers ever looked like Cypress Point's (I don't think so) but if that is the goal, I'm all for it.  Maybe another $1m gift would do it. ;)

Mike mentioned, quite rightly, the course/clubhouse/maintenance split.  The one thing that makes me envious of our poor cousins up the road in East Lansing is their superb turfgrass management program.  MSU's Forest Akers Golf Course (a 36-hole complex now) is a decidedly lesser layout on much more average land, and yet they do an infinitely better job of maintaining it.

Chuck,

Let's take the 6th green -- a great, fun hole with a really cool green.  They "fixed" drainage in the back left fringe and off the green to keep water from running across the green -- by doing so they took away the back left flagstick location that used to be there by significantly altering the grades.  There is a 6-7% slope on the back section of green that will be too radical if the green speed gets up at all, but with the added space that used to be there, the greens could run fast and still provide options and fun (for the record, I don't think the course's greens should ever run faster than 10 and if they were 9, firm, and rolling true, then you could pin many areas that are unavailable today -- that is basically a general statement/philosophy about green speed).

Hope that helps.

Mike

Mike

I am not sure what you mean by back left on #6.  I would call the hole location we played back left - look at the pic on the 1st page of this thread.  No doubt it is a severe placement because in many spots its impossible to putt directly or indirectly to that location.  Its also severe because as you say the slope is very difficult to stop the ball creep and there is very little room to keep the ball below the hole there.  I do agree that the green speeds should not be reaching double digits at UofM.  There are just too many severe slopes in which putting off the green or not being able to putt within 10 feet would become commonplace. 

Ciao
Sean,

My point wasn't that there isn't a back left pin, but that they didn't recognize that there were considerable areas around the greens that were original to the design and they graded in those areas for various reasons, whether it was redirecting surface drainage or in the reconstruction of the bunkers.  In the 6th's case, they left the green intact but graded the fringe and rough beyond it for other work, disregarding the fact that it was originally green surface.  That back left pin is marginal for a flagstick location due to the slope, particularly when the speed gets up in mid-season.  With a re-expanded and established green margin, there would be more opportunities to put the pin there, be "fair," and spread the wear around a bit.

Best,
Mike

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2008, 03:30:38 AM »
As someone who knows the course and who very much likes it, I really have no disagreement with Mike.  One thing in particular that he said bears more discussion; like so many golf courses, UMGC was victimized by careless mowing patterns that reduced the expansive original green dimensions.

Yes they took down a lot of the most-awful trees and yest there are more that should go.  I truly agree.

But I'm having a hard time picturing where greenside bunker work changed the grade of any putting surfaces.  Mike do you have any specifics on that?

I should add, as I mentioned above;  Hills' bunker work made the bunkering "better."  Could it be better still?  Sure.  I don't know if U of M's bunkers ever looked like Cypress Point's (I don't think so) but if that is the goal, I'm all for it.  Maybe another $1m gift would do it. ;)

Mike mentioned, quite rightly, the course/clubhouse/maintenance split.  The one thing that makes me envious of our poor cousins up the road in East Lansing is their superb turfgrass management program.  MSU's Forest Akers Golf Course (a 36-hole complex now) is a decidedly lesser layout on much more average land, and yet they do an infinitely better job of maintaining it.

Chuck,

Let's take the 6th green -- a great, fun hole with a really cool green.  They "fixed" drainage in the back left fringe and off the green to keep water from running across the green -- by doing so they took away the back left flagstick location that used to be there by significantly altering the grades.  There is a 6-7% slope on the back section of green that will be too radical if the green speed gets up at all, but with the added space that used to be there, the greens could run fast and still provide options and fun (for the record, I don't think the course's greens should ever run faster than 10 and if they were 9, firm, and rolling true, then you could pin many areas that are unavailable today -- that is basically a general statement/philosophy about green speed).

Hope that helps.

Mike

Mike

I am not sure what you mean by back left on #6.  I would call the hole location we played back left - look at the pic on the 1st page of this thread.  No doubt it is a severe placement because in many spots its impossible to putt directly or indirectly to that location.  Its also severe because as you say the slope is very difficult to stop the ball creep and there is very little room to keep the ball below the hole there.  I do agree that the green speeds should not be reaching double digits at UofM.  There are just too many severe slopes in which putting off the green or not being able to putt within 10 feet would become commonplace. 

Ciao
Sean,

My point wasn't that there isn't a back left pin, but that they didn't recognize that there were considerable areas around the greens that were original to the design and they graded in those areas for various reasons, whether it was redirecting surface drainage or in the reconstruction of the bunkers.  In the 6th's case, they left the green intact but graded the fringe and rough beyond it for other work, disregarding the fact that it was originally green surface.  That back left pin is marginal for a flagstick location due to the slope, particularly when the speed gets up in mid-season.  With a re-expanded and established green margin, there would be more opportunities to put the pin there, be "fair," and spread the wear around a bit.

Best,
Mike

Mike

Thats fair enough.  I know on the 6th I did wonder about the shot coming in from the right, greenside beyond the front bunker.  I thought this area should be fairway to give one a better chance of hitting a decent chip in the air cuz (of course if its rough its nearly impossible to hold the top area even if its only 20 yards away) the there is no room to bounce the ball and this is after a well placed drive.  If they lost space up top that would help explain the awkwardness of this chip which should imo at least offer the option of a runup.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2008, 08:45:47 AM »
So we're clear-
Is this what happend?

There was evidence, either in the ground, or shown in early pictures similar to the ones on display in the clubhouse; that the original greens were larger than they were before the Hills work.

Hills followed instructions not to touch the greens, but during bunker construction left fill on these areas changing the original grade. In some cases bunkers were actually built in areas that were at one time greens.

That original bunker design was not attempted to be replecated.

The course is bettter off now than it was before the work.



Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2008, 04:34:16 PM »
So we're clear-
Is this what happend?

There was evidence, either in the ground, or shown in early pictures similar to the ones on display in the clubhouse; that the original greens were larger than they were before the Hills work.

Hills followed instructions not to touch the greens, but during bunker construction left fill on these areas changing the original grade. In some cases bunkers were actually built in areas that were at one time greens.

That original bunker design was not attempted to be replecated.

The course is bettter off now than it was before the work.


Will,
 
Yes, there was much evidence in the ground -- you just had to take the time to notice it.  And now, those areas have been altered, most probably by cutting the areas, not filling, in most cases.  And, yes, the greens were much larger than now, as evidenced by pictures and ground research -- I think the most incredible of the lost opportunities in this regard is the 4th, which was HUGE.

Hills didn't touch the existing green surfaces, as they were mown at the time.  Yes, bunkers were built or rebuilt in areas that were once green surface.

The original bunker design was attempted to be replicated, that was the intent.  I don't think it was achieved effectively, but if you hear that they "restored" the great Alister MacKenzie's work enough times, people begin to believe it.

Yes, I think the course is better off now than before.  BUT, it should be so much better.

Best,
Mike

PS How are things at Barton?

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2008, 08:54:03 AM »
Mike-
Thanks for the reply.
I guess the good news is that it's still possible that they could some day get it right.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2010, 03:25:00 AM »
So we're clear-
Is this what happend?

There was evidence, either in the ground, or shown in early pictures similar to the ones on display in the clubhouse; that the original greens were larger than they were before the Hills work.

Hills followed instructions not to touch the greens, but during bunker construction left fill on these areas changing the original grade. In some cases bunkers were actually built in areas that were at one time greens.

That original bunker design was not attempted to be replecated.

The course is bettter off now than it was before the work.


Will,
 
Yes, there was much evidence in the ground -- you just had to take the time to notice it.  And now, those areas have been altered, most probably by cutting the areas, not filling, in most cases.  And, yes, the greens were much larger than now, as evidenced by pictures and ground research -- I think the most incredible of the lost opportunities in this regard is the 4th, which was HUGE.

Hills didn't touch the existing green surfaces, as they were mown at the time.  Yes, bunkers were built or rebuilt in areas that were once green surface.

The original bunker design was attempted to be replicated, that was the intent.  I don't think it was achieved effectively, but if you hear that they "restored" the great Alister MacKenzie's work enough times, people begin to believe it.

Yes, I think the course is better off now than before.  BUT, it should be so much better.

Best,
Mike

PS How are things at Barton?


Mike or anybody

Do you have an old photo of the 4th?  I would be curious to see how big that already huge green was.  Did it spread further left and back?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2010, 06:00:07 AM »
This course is on my radar for sometime this summer. Should I wear Ohio State gear on the course?
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Brent Carlson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2010, 09:26:48 PM »
So we're clear-
Is this what happend?

There was evidence, either in the ground, or shown in early pictures similar to the ones on display in the clubhouse; that the original greens were larger than they were before the Hills work.

Hills followed instructions not to touch the greens, but during bunker construction left fill on these areas changing the original grade. In some cases bunkers were actually built in areas that were at one time greens.

That original bunker design was not attempted to be replecated.

The course is bettter off now than it was before the work.


Will,
 
Yes, there was much evidence in the ground -- you just had to take the time to notice it.  And now, those areas have been altered, most probably by cutting the areas, not filling, in most cases.  And, yes, the greens were much larger than now, as evidenced by pictures and ground research -- I think the most incredible of the lost opportunities in this regard is the 4th, which was HUGE.

Hills didn't touch the existing green surfaces, as they were mown at the time.  Yes, bunkers were built or rebuilt in areas that were once green surface.

The original bunker design was attempted to be replicated, that was the intent.  I don't think it was achieved effectively, but if you hear that they "restored" the great Alister MacKenzie's work enough times, people begin to believe it.

Yes, I think the course is better off now than before.  BUT, it should be so much better.

Best,
Mike

PS How are things at Barton?


Mike or anybody

Do you have an old photo of the 4th?  I would be curious to see how big that already huge green was.  Did it spread further left and back?

Ciao

Sean,

While I do not have a picture, you are correct.  The fourth green grew to the back left.  The slope is actually quite severe back there.  Another thing that changed the hole dramatically was the new tennis building.  Before the green had a backdrop of trees, and now it is bordered by a large brown barn. 

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2010, 11:20:57 AM »
Mike,

Thanks for the info (and the pix, Sean)... I'm still kicking myself for spending four years there, prior to said "renovations", without ever setting foot on the course! Maybe that's why I still suck at golf!  Finally played the course last year for the first time with my son, and it's still a fun and interesting track, but it sounds like it could be so much more....Maybe in 10-15 years when the economy's humming again we can get an alumni group together and hire you to do it right!
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 11:28:42 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2010, 11:14:10 AM »
Mike or anybody

Do you have an old photo of the 4th?  I would be curious to see how big that already huge green was.  Did it spread further left and back?

Ciao

Sean,
No, I don't have an old photo but it was MUCH larger, to the back left and out to the right a little, too, as Brent noted.
Mike

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #62 on: February 01, 2010, 11:18:03 AM »
Mike,

Thanks for the info (and the pix, Sean)... I'm still kicking myself for spending four years there, prior to said "renovations", without ever setting foot on the course! Maybe that's why I still suck at golf!  Finally played the course last year for the first time with my son, and it's still a fun and interesting track, but it sounds like it could be so much more....Maybe in 10-15 years when the economy's humming again we can get an alumni group together and hire you to do it right!
Jud,
Sounds like fun!  The course could have quite a bit more character and be even more fun to play.  Getting to the point where more University uses and roads will start to pressure the perimeter of the course, so I hope that is a consideration for the school officials and we have a chance to do it right.
Best,
Mike

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #63 on: February 01, 2010, 12:03:52 PM »
Mike,

Thanks for the info (and the pix, Sean)... I'm still kicking myself for spending four years there, prior to said "renovations", without ever setting foot on the course! Maybe that's why I still suck at golf!  Finally played the course last year for the first time with my son, and it's still a fun and interesting track, but it sounds like it could be so much more....Maybe in 10-15 years when the economy's humming again we can get an alumni group together and hire you to do it right!
Jud,
Sounds like fun!  The course could have quite a bit more character and be even more fun to play.  Getting to the point where more University uses and roads will start to pressure the perimeter of the course, so I hope that is a consideration for the school officials and we have a chance to do it right.
Best,
Mike

Mike, if anybody were needed, to second the Motion that you be made the "Architect in Residence" for UMGC, count me in.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #64 on: February 01, 2010, 12:21:01 PM »
Mike, I would love hear some of the ideas you may have on restoring the course. What changes would you make if you were in charge?

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #65 on: February 01, 2010, 01:05:08 PM »
Maybe at the reunion you guys could sit around and talk about your basketball program ;)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #66 on: February 01, 2010, 01:12:53 PM »
JC,

Enjoy it while it lasts baby!
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #67 on: February 01, 2010, 01:15:03 PM »
14 years and counting ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #68 on: February 01, 2010, 03:23:07 PM »
Mike, I would love hear some of the ideas you may have on restoring the course. What changes would you make if you were in charge?
Richard,
I haven't looked at or been on the course in 10+ years, so I haven't seen the degradation of bunkers that may have happened since the "restoration."  Most importantly, the greens need to be reclaimed to their original size and shape -- critical to provide the intent that MacKenzie wanted throughout the course.  In conjunction with that, get the bunkers right.  Third, remove the unnecessary and improper trees that have been planted over the years and highlight the good specimens -- better turf, better playability, and a better look to the course.  By doing those three things, we could restore the creative and artistic flair of the course and make it really fun to play.
Best,
Mike

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #69 on: February 01, 2010, 04:13:45 PM »
Seems to me like this would be a no-brainer for a place like Michigan.  I don't really understand why places like Michigan and Yale, etc. don't maximize what they have in the ground.  Seems like for a relatively modest amount of money, at least by University budget standards, these courses could be presented in a much better fashion...Seems as if it would be great for recruiting and Alumni contributions.  Don't a large percentage of very successful alumni play golf? Wouldn't they be more likely to visit campus more often, and be more involved in alumni groups, and therefore donate more, if there was a world-class course presented in very good fashion? Is it not possible to still provide for reasonable greens fees for students and faculty yet upgrade the course conditioning?  I know times are tough and endowments have dropped significantly, but this smacks of not seeing the forest for the trees to me....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #70 on: February 01, 2010, 06:40:03 PM »
Mike - Without re-reading the entire thread, my recollection was that the last time you saw the course was late in the restoration work (I'll use the word "resotration" - debate it if you wish) being done by Hills' guys.  I agreed, and still agree, with almost everything you say.  The course was hideously overplanted with pine trees.  Hills removed many of them.  More could be removed.  You are 110% correct about the mowing lines on the greens and their consequent diminishment.  I think I understand what you are saying about the bunkers, and I think I agree.  I got the impression, however, that all of the Hills work had not been completed when you last visited.

It would be my great pleasure to take you out there this year when and if you have the time.

Jud - All of the nitpicking on a thread like this might leave one with the impression that the course just sucked.  It doesn't.  It is a wonderful bit of land, and an exceptionally nice layout, with lots of Mackenzie and Maxwell apparent.  I've played Yale, and practically lived at Michigan.  They both suffered through a long period of inattention.  And architectural vandalism in the form of tree-planting.  Hills' work at Michigan might well be the subject of criticism from Mike DeVries, but I would strongly argue that the main credits to Hills are that he (a) didn't screw anything up; his work was rather modest and little-changing of the original design, and (b) helped a good bit in terms of restorative quality.  If the credo is "First, do no harm," I think Hills did okay.  Compare the Nicklaus re-working of Mackenzie's Scarlet Course at Ohio State.  It was all 1000% more invasive than anything done at Michigan.  Michigan remains far more "original" than any other Mackenzie/Maxwell course I can think of, quite possibly including Crystal Downs.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 06:42:50 PM by Chuck Brown »

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2010, 09:44:02 PM »
I will be in A2 for the Bowling Green game this year. I am definitely squeezing in a round as I have not seen the course since the restoration. I am really looking forward to playing this great course again.

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #72 on: February 01, 2010, 09:53:21 PM »
I will be in A2 for the Bowling Green game this year. I am definitely squeezing in a round as I have not seen the course since the restoration. I am really looking forward to playing this great course again.

Have you seen the football stadium additions?  That might blow your mind more than the golf course.

As I say, Mike DeVries has it all pretty much correct; all I can say is that Hills' work was a good solid step in the right direction and the course is much improved.

There's a new sheriff in town, too.  Current AD Bill Martin was an Olympic sailor and sailing, not golf, is his passion.  The new AD David Brandon is a 7.5 index player at Barton Hills CC (D. Ross), where they have held a number of USGA events since he's been a member there.  Yayyy, golf!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #73 on: February 02, 2010, 01:45:55 AM »
Seems to me like this would be a no-brainer for a place like Michigan.  I don't really understand why places like Michigan and Yale, etc. don't maximize what they have in the ground.  Seems like for a relatively modest amount of money, at least by University budget standards, these courses could be presented in a much better fashion...Seems as if it would be great for recruiting and Alumni contributions.  Don't a large percentage of very successful alumni play golf? Wouldn't they be more likely to visit campus more often, and be more involved in alumni groups, and therefore donate more, if there was a world-class course presented in very good fashion? Is it not possible to still provide for reasonable greens fees for students and faculty yet upgrade the course conditioning?  I know times are tough and endowments have dropped significantly, but this smacks of not seeing the forest for the trees to me....

Jud

I largely agree with Chuck.  I don't know that the course can really be improved that much and that slight improvement may not be worth the cost.  What we (well Mike) are really talking about is a return to some of the Max-Mac stuff that was there - namely some larger greens and tree removal.  While the tree removal aspect is always welcome imo, the larger green situation doesn't necessarily improve the course.  For example, the 4th is a huge green now, does it need to be any bigger?  Though I do think there is something wrong with the 6th - if using a back left hole location is a goal.  This said, I would still welcome the university hiring an archie if only to keep things on an even keel. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: University of Michigan GC
« Reply #74 on: February 02, 2010, 10:07:21 AM »
Mike - Without re-reading the entire thread, my recollection was that the last time you saw the course was late in the restoration work (I'll use the word "resotration" - debate it if you wish) being done by Hills' guys.  I agreed, and still agree, with almost everything you say.  The course was hideously overplanted with pine trees.  Hills removed many of them.  More could be removed.  You are 110% correct about the mowing lines on the greens and their consequent diminishment.  I think I understand what you are saying about the bunkers, and I think I agree.  I got the impression, however, that all of the Hills work had not been completed when you last visited.

It would be my great pleasure to take you out there this year when and if you have the time.

Jud - All of the nitpicking on a thread like this might leave one with the impression that the course just sucked.  It doesn't.  It is a wonderful bit of land, and an exceptionally nice layout, with lots of Mackenzie and Maxwell apparent.  I've played Yale, and practically lived at Michigan.  They both suffered through a long period of inattention.  And architectural vandalism in the form of tree-planting.  Hills' work at Michigan might well be the subject of criticism from Mike DeVries, but I would strongly argue that the main credits to Hills are that he (a) didn't screw anything up; his work was rather modest and little-changing of the original design, and (b) helped a good bit in terms of restorative quality.  If the credo is "First, do no harm," I think Hills did okay.  Compare the Nicklaus re-working of Mackenzie's Scarlet Course at Ohio State.  It was all 1000% more invasive than anything done at Michigan.  Michigan remains far more "original" than any other Mackenzie/Maxwell course I can think of, quite possibly including Crystal Downs.


Chuck,

I haven’t been on the course since late 1994-1995, so that is post-restoration, and certainly not privy to anything that has happened since then.  I would enjoy getting out to the course again, just haven’t been in the Ann Arbor area to do so (with the exception of a fall football Saturday, when the family doesn’t want me to drag them around the course to look at it), but if I am heading through that area, I hope to have the time to meet up with you to tour and discuss.

The course is intact but it certainly isn’t original (see comments below) and not nearly as intact as the features at Crystal Downs.

Please see copies of previous responses I made in 2008 below -- I believe they are still accurate.

Best,
Mike

Reply #44
Let's clarify some things -- the $3M renovation was $1M for each of the following: golf course work, maintenance endowment, and clubhouse renovation. 

Next, the Hills "restoration" was anything but that.  About 400 trees were removed (a lot more need to be taken out still -- poor species, poor locations, infringement on playing options, etc.) and all the bunkers were "restored" with the use of some 1930's aerials -- not comprehensive but a significant number.  Still the bunkers were not restored as faithfully as they should have been and many were expanded into areas that were not part of the bunkers originally or into zones that affect other aspects of the course.

The greens in their existing state were not touched, as dictated by the University, BUT the greens were not restored out to their original HUGE sizes as they should have been.  If you think the greens are fun now, think about what some other pin locations that are tucked further around the corner would be like!  What about lag putts of 30+ yards?!?!?  Now, here is the kicker -- although they didn't touch the greens, when they redid bunkers and reworked around the exterior of the greens, they impacted and changed grade in many instances in original green surface!!!!!!!!  That makes me cringe every time I think about it. 

This is not an uninformed opinion -- information is gathered by seeing the photographs from the 1930's, talking with a friend (excellent player shooting his age in his 70's at the time) who grew up across the street and caddied and played the course from its beginning, and spending time on the course playing and studying the features while at school and during the renovation for about a month (actually leveled tees for the construction team, as I knew some of the guys and they needed an extra hand during the actual renovation period -- I was just a fill-in and the bunker work was done by the mini-hoe operator with some very basic and simplistic ground work by Art on infrequent occasions).

All said, the course is in much better shape and being treated much better than it was for many years, but it should be so much more.

Reply #47      
I have not been on the course in 10-12 years, so not familiar with any recent changes, but the "restoration" of the bunker shapes was too broad of a sweep and amorphous instead of really following what the ground was hinting at with the existing contours, which I believe to have been original and unchanged, except for the grass to have changed, grown over, or been benevolently denied attention for many of the previous 60 years.  There was not enough (or any) attention given to what was on the ground and really analyzing what was there versus just looking at an old photograph (maybe fuzzy or at a small scale) and just simply going after it.  Real attention should have been given to what was on the ground to reclaim original green surface and bunker intricacies.

Reply #48
Let's take the 6th green -- a great, fun hole with a really cool green.  They "fixed" drainage in the back left fringe and off the green to keep water from running across the green -- by doing so they took away the back left flagstick location that used to be there by significantly altering the grades.  There is a 6-7% slope on the back section of green that will be too radical if the green speed gets up at all, but with the added space that used to be there, the greens could run fast and still provide options and fun (for the record, I don't think the course's greens should ever run faster than 10 and if they were 9, firm, and rolling true, then you could pin many areas that are unavailable today -- that is basically a general statement/philosophy about green speed).      

Reply #52
My point wasn't that there isn't a back left pin, but that they didn't recognize that there were considerable areas around the greens that were original to the design and they graded in those areas for various reasons, whether it was redirecting surface drainage or in the reconstruction of the bunkers.  In the 6th's case, they left the green intact but graded the fringe and rough beyond it for other work, disregarding the fact that it was originally green surface.  That back left pin is marginal for a flagstick location due to the slope, particularly when the speed gets up in mid-season.  With a re-expanded and established green margin, there would be more opportunities to put the pin there, be "fair," and spread the wear around a bit.

Reply #55
Yes, there was much evidence in the ground -- you just had to take the time to notice it.  And now, those areas have been altered, most probably by cutting the areas, not filling, in most cases.  And, yes, the greens were much larger than now, as evidenced by pictures and ground research -- I think the most incredible of the lost opportunities in this regard is the 4th, which was HUGE.

Hills didn't touch the existing green surfaces, as they were mown at the time.  Yes, bunkers were built or rebuilt in areas that were once green surface.

The original bunker design was attempted to be replicated, that was the intent.  I don't think it was achieved effectively, but if you hear that they "restored" the great Alister MacKenzie's work enough times, people begin to believe it.

Yes, I think the course is better off now than before.  BUT, it should be so much better.



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