Prairie Club & Alberta Dunes

[Matt Varney]

Does anyone have any updates on the status of The Prairie Club and Alberta Dunes projects?

[Scott Weersing]

I do not believe Geoff S. will be working on the Prairie Club design. They hired Tom Lehman instead.

http://www.hotel-online.com/News/PR2007_1st/Mar07_SandHills.html

[Matt Varney]

Scott,

I read somewhere that a venture capitalist had acquired The Prairie Club project and it was being reworked.  I also read an article talking about Mike Keiser, Bill Coore and Rod Whitman on a project called Alberta Dunes.  The pictures of the sand dunes look great and I can just imagine the site being spectacular if those guys are all involved.  Check out these links below:

http://www.scoregolf.com/articles/xx-column-robert-thompson/Masterpiece-in-the-Making.cfm

http://www.ontgolf.ca/g4g/2006/05/10/more-photos-from-alberta-dunes/

MV

[Robert Thompson]

Matt: I wrote the two stories in question. Alberta Dunes isn't going to happen -- at least not any time soon. Keiser is, however, financing part of the Cabot Links project.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Keiser is, however, financing part of the Cabot Links project.

OK, next question:  has Cabot started construction yet?

[Chip Gaskins]

cabot will really get moving this summer.  i had drinks with ran last weekend and he is excited to get things rolling there....sounds like an awesome set of characters and long term plans up there.  i will let him add further info as he sees fit.

[Chip Gaskins]

Robert- 

Any public info on why Alberta Dunes didn't work out?  I would love to hear what broke the model...regulations, weather, land cost, etc???

Chip

[Matt Varney]

Cabot Links from the website looks like a great piece of land to work with to create something really special.  What is the plan for Cabot Links?  Sand Hills type private club membership that values great design or a pure golf resort like Bandon?

What happened to Alberta Dunes?  With a great piece of land, the right people and proper financing the private jets will fly in from all over to play a great course in a very remote location.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

There are a lot of "very remote locations" competing for those same private jet owners, and Alberta is a little further out of the way than most of the competition.  You would think that will all the "oil sands" money in Alberta there would be someone with enough cash falling out of their pockets to finance the course, but not yet, apparently.

[Matt Varney]

Tom,

I agree it is a shame that you can't find enough people to support the new minimalist links course designs that could be designed by a guy like you, C&C, Gil Hanse on a site like Alberta Dunes.  It must be really far out and remote if Mike Keiser passed on the opportunity.  He basically put Bandon on the map and made coastal Oregon a discussion topic like a golf trip with your buddies to Pebble Beach at ever golf course in America.

Have you been to Alberta Dunes and The Prairie Club properties to take a look at them?

What projects are you working on right now besides Rock Creek?

MDV

[Tom_Doak]

Well Matt, I just spilled the beans on one of them on an adjacent thread.

Rock Creek is long since done.  This year we are working on the fourth course at Bandon, a project in Baja Mexico, our public course re-do in Denver, and finishing a private course in Bend, Oregon.

Next year we could have anywhere from one to nine courses to build.  The ones I am most confident will start are in Costa Rica and on South Caicos Island in the Caribbean, but I'm hopeful there will be some others, even though there are several I can't talk about yet because they're still top secret.  I CAN promise you there are one or two that, if they happen, will usurp even the Merion threads on this board, but it'll probably be another 6-12 months before you would hear about those.

P.S.  I looked at The Prairie Club site years ago, and I've seen a few pictures from Alberta.  They are both TERRIFIC sites, probably the two best I know of aside from our own.  Apparently The Prairie Club will start construction this summer, but with different architects and NOT along the canyon, which is nuts.  I would've killed to do that one, but we can't complain about our opportunities.

[Adam Clayman]

According to some scuttlebutt, construction on the Prairie club will commence and/or finish this summer. Plans are to start grassing in the fall.  I'd assume thats a bit of a stretch, unless it is all sand.
 

[Matt Varney]

Tom,

I read a thread response from you that you were sitting in the ANZ lounge in LAX and of all things you are spending time on Golf Club Atlas.  Sounds like you have some great stuff going on in the pipeline.  Are you "top secret" looking at design/build any courses near me in TN?

I sure hope they don't screw up some great prime parcels of land with half ass course designs that could be really good if they just paid close attention to design and routing courses on the best land suitable for great golf.

MDV

[Jason Hines]

I hope you are both correct about Prairie Highlands, looks like a tremendous piece of property.  I need a public version of BN, SH etc until I am finished with college funds.  The sand hills are a spiritual place and true golf belongs there.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I've visited both the Prairie Club (with Rod Whitman) and Alberta Dunes (with Whitman and Bill Coore) properties. Both are indeed fantastic sites.

As Doak says, it's amazing -- if true -- the first Prairie Club course won't be built along the canyon rim. The golfing potential along the canyon rim at Prairie Club, where Whitman and I concentrated our preliminary examination efforts (and where Hanse/Wagner/Shackelford routed their course, there), is outstanding.

In short, Alberta Dunes is unbelievable. Seriously. And, I'm happy to report, the project isn't dead. Work is in progress with regard to the potential of making this development happen... though, it's not going to be easy to put the deal together.

[Matt Varney]

Jeff,

Someone needs to talk to the new owner "Paul Schock" of the Prairie Club and tell the guy they will make a huge financial mistake routing the course somewhere other than the canyon rim if that is the best property for the course design.  The good player will only visit once and never come back if the course is not spectacular and creates memories. 

What does Alberta Dunes need money?  Do you have a business plan that I can review and get in front of some of my friends that might be interested investors?

MDV

[Jeff_Mingay]

Matt,

I'm not going to make any phone calls. The owner/developer of Prairie Club has hired a golf course architect(s), and I'm sure they're already providing expert advice.

But, as I see it, a course along the canyon rim will DEFINITELY differentiate the Prairie Club from its neighbours, at Sand Hills and Dismal River (if this is Prairie Club's competition?). Frankly, I'm thinking -- following a 3-4 day visit there, some 4-5 years ago -- the BEST course on the property utilizes the canyon rim. I could be wrong though. 

Re Alberta Dunes... I certainly know who to put you in touch with!

[RJ_Daley]

Jeff, I only spent one day there with Doc, Geoff, and Gil.  It is still a fond memory going through the routing with them and positioning stakes for turning points and green sites.  I agree that the rim would be the great differentiator with about half the course coming in contact with the awesome caprock canyon walls and sights down to the river stream below and across to the high ground.  With the other half of the holes across pure sand hill rolls, it would have been the best of both terrains, and would have had something for everyone's tastes.

Yet, we also scouted the site of the dream second 18 through all sand hill rolls adjacent to the anchor 18.  Being a guy that loves the endless beauty and magic of the sea of grassland waves, I probably would have gravitated in my personal tastes to the land of the second 18.  But, I completely agree from a diversity standpoint and a theme to seperate the sand hill courses, Gil and Geoff's caprock canyon rimshot would have been spectacular.  I really got worked up over their dual greensite.   I guess the only other reservation I had was any danger of enthralled golfers (or inebriated ones) getting too close to the rim.  Or, sloughing off of the land.  Although that would be less likely with the caprock base.

A final aspect that I would at least consider valid to not use the rim route is to preserve a suitably wide corridor of natural walking-hiking land along the entire rim route.  Conservationally or preservationally speaking, that does have some strong validity, if that is what the new group's thinking is on that issue.

[Matt Varney]

RJ,

I understand the conservation approach totally and I have never even seen the property.  Yet if you are going to spend millions to build a golf course on some great that is a unique landform do it right the first time.  Why is the best laid plans always get changed and people end up settling for something less in the end.

San Hills is spectacular because they did it right the first time.  If The Prairie Club needs to separate itself from the pack it has to create something dramatic architecturally out of the unique land forms that are in place on the property.  This approach creates memorable golf holes like Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, Pine Valley that just blow you away and you find yourself on the interstate driving down the road thinking about these golf holes.

The experience has to be unique and something a golfer can take with them and want to come back and experience again.  I just hope they do it right and design the best course they can with what they have and preserve the natural environment.

[RJ_Daley]

Matt, on all your points, Gil's routing and vision would have been spectacular. 

I might differ with you slightly that the vision has to be unique totally. 

Maybe it is just me, but I see great variation and diversity from one sand hill complex to the other where I think many folks think that you've seen one sand hill complex - you've seen 'em all.  I think individual architects bring a different set of routing and playing strategy to their plans that can differentiate their design from another's just in how they use the land.  Sand Hills GC had a methodology (as explained to me by the owner) to the design where the lay and orientation of the rolling sand hills were used in a sympathetic way as the general orientation on long holes, with short holes crossbucking the orientation.  Another archie might go more against the grain, or see different cuts and placement of greensites and bunker landmarks.   Those differences in how they see and use the land orientations prrovide enough diversity to me, that I personally don't need more "uniqueness". 

But, as a marketting strategy and for unique expression and creativity, I also completely agree that the use of the rim by Hanse at P.C. would have been a big draw. 

But, reality is such that the original isn't going to happen apparently.  So, to make lemonade out of a situation that I'm not privy to IF there is sourness in the way it all went down, I suggest that the best concept for the rim caprock is to preserve for low impact hiking enjoyment.

[Adam Clayman]

If i'm not mistaken, Lehman was chosen because of his draw from the Twin cities.
 

[Matt Varney]

I guess I can understand that philosophy behind selcting Lehman but, my initial thought was he was chosen because he had won a British Open.  He is a great player no doubt but, it is not about attracting players from the Twin Cities.

You have to create a really special course first and if you do that well then people will travel to the location to play the course.

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, attracting those players from the twin cities has everything to do with it. Especially with the resort model. (unless that's changed again, too?)
 
I'll predict one thing, if they do not get the first two courses right. Meaning, not only a compelling design, but, also fitting the look and playability into the natural surrounds, there won't be a canyon course for Gil, Jim and Geoff to build.

There's even rumor about another course going into the Sand Hills, but, I'm not privy to the specifics and have said too much already.

[Tony_Chapman]

Frankly, Matt, some of Lehman's stuff has been pretty and none of it has been on a site as cool as Prairie. I think the Schrock guy (and some other folks he knows) get IT. As a Nebraskan, I look forward to the end result of this project. Let's not bury it before it starts.

[Jim Nugent]

There's even rumor about another course going into the Sand Hills, but, I'm not privy to the specifics and have said too much already.

You've said too little.  Would love to hear more about this.