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Patrick_Mucci

Who wrote the following passage circa 1908 ?


"Don't be in a hurry to make many bunkers through the green until the course has been played on for a bit.

Until you have played on a course a good deal in all winds and at all seasons, both wet and dry, it is impossible to gauge the length that good shots will get.

This does not apply to bunkers round the greens.
You can't have too many of these, as, granted that you have a fair sized good green, a good player ought to be able to put his ball upon it no matter how many bunkers there are round it."

According to Mike Cirba, this was the procedure that was followed at Merion.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2008, 10:04:27 AM »
Pat

I believe this passage appears in Chapter 16 of James Braid's book, "Advanced Golf." The chapter is titled, "The Planning of Golf Courses."

Published 1908. I believe Colt advocated this method also, at least at the beginning of his career. MacKenzie in contrast wrote against it.

Mark

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2008, 10:05:27 AM »
Pat

I believe this passage appears in Chapter 16 of James Braid's book, "Advanced Golf." The chapter is titled, "The Planning of Golf Courses."

Published 1908. I believe Colt advocated this method also, at least at the beginning of his career. MacKenzie in contrast wrote against it.

Mark
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 10:07:41 AM by Mark Bourgeois »

Rich Goodale

Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2008, 10:32:54 AM »
Pat and Mark

You might be interested in the following:

"History of Mullingar Golf Club

The story of how James Braid designed this marvellous course has gone down in Irish folklore. Brought over from Scotland by the old Dublin boat train from Glasgow, he arrived at Mullingar with the early morning dew, and after a little “liquid refreshment” to enliven his flagging energy, simply asked for “a hatchet and three dozen wooden tees”. Then, before the astonished eyes of the founder members, he simply chopped and hacked his way into the middle of the then formidable gorse. With his trademark walrus moustache flapping in the wind, in four hours flat he had “pegged off” the now famous eighteen holes and greens, using the little wooden golf tees as markers. He then simply pointed to where the clubhouse should be built, handed the members his bill, and stepped back into his motorcar for the return journey to Dublin.

This story by itself would be incredible enough, given the totally incredible amounts of money and man-hours that are now spent on course design, but it doesn’t end here. As the course was nearing completion, someone suddenly realised that no provision had been made for any sand traps. An urgent telegram was sent to the unflappable Braid, asking him to return forthwith and “finish” his design. By return, a telegram winged its way to the members. “Play your new course for a month, and where you see the most divot marks, that’s where you put your bunkers!”

Rich
 
 
 

TEPaul

Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2008, 10:37:34 AM »
Flynn very much recommended that in his article in the USGA bulletin in the late 1920s. He also said the various types of "bunkering schemes" chosen was the technique to be used to make a course easier or harder.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2008, 10:45:47 AM »
Patrick

This was an early practice used by some of the early Designers including Old Tom. His design in 1896 at West Herts G C left the club with no bunkers. The normal was to wait two to three months prior to returning and selecting the most interesting sites.

Richard

James Braid redesign of Brora in the 1920's was undertaken between trains.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2008, 11:18:08 AM »
"a good player ought to be able to put his ball upon it no matter how many bunkers there are round it."
 

As Braid was an accomplished player, and considering how quickly he routed, was this the start of "dictated" architecture, and the move away from either the strategic and/or natural school(s)?

No wonder The good Doctor disagreed.
 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2008, 12:03:31 PM »
So far, the author of the passage appears to have gone unnamed.

Although, attribution might lead to others.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2008, 12:28:03 PM »
CBM? ;)
Let's make GCA grate again!

Bill_Yates

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2008, 01:42:25 PM »
I don't know if he ever wrote about it but Henry Fownes certainly believed in this practice. He would observe play then add bunkers to Oakmont that brought the total to around 300.  Because of his "strategically placed" bunkers and his contoured and lightning-fast greens, he became the father of penal golf course architecture.
Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

Mike_Cirba

Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2008, 01:55:36 PM »
The ironic thing is that virtually all of the famous template holes are so named because of their rote, predictable, prescriptive, consistently-placed bunkering.   

If CB Macdonald said it, he was hypocritical in practice.

He wouldn't have been the first or last architect who didn't do as he said to do.   

He did apparently have a thing for "abrupt mounds", however, which leads my imagination in all sorts of directions, but mostly to Mae West and Rees Jones.  ;)




« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 02:03:36 PM by MichaelPaulCirba »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2008, 01:58:27 PM »
The concept makes perfect sense to me.  Given budgetary constraints,
 struggling new private clubs, and the need for finished product, I don't see that model working today.  On the other hand, older clubs that are redesigning/renovating it seems to be true for them.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mark_F

Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2008, 11:08:29 PM »
So far, the author of the passage appears to have gone unnamed.

Although, attribution might lead to others.

Patrick,

I am positive it was Donal Ross.

Probably not an unsound methodology.  Look at Kingston Heath...

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2008, 11:19:46 PM »
So far, NO ONE, including Mike Cirba, who guessed wrong again, has identified the author.

Would you like a hint ?

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2008, 12:26:26 AM »
How about  Tom Simpson. He was writing and contributing then.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 12:36:05 AM by Pete_Pittock »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2008, 07:44:55 AM »
A number of the classic guys did including Flynn as well as the Merion guy Mr. H. Barker  ;D

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2008, 08:12:36 AM »
I admit this methodology sounds intriguing, but practically it can only be used on courses that don't require sub surface drainage...... which are typically soils found in linksland or old dune systems.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2008, 08:14:25 AM »
Hugh Wilson?

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike_Cirba

Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2008, 01:14:31 PM »
Horace Hutchinson.

Bill_Yates

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2008, 02:40:22 PM »
H.S. Colt
Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2008, 05:30:29 PM »
So far, the author of the quote remains unidentified.

Kelly Blake Moran,

It's good to see you posting again.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2008, 12:18:35 AM »
Jack Nicklaus?
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mark_F

Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2008, 02:30:48 AM »
It must be Tom Paul, then.

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2008, 03:27:07 AM »
Was it you Patrick?  ;D

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who advocated adding bunkers after a course is open for play ?
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2008, 06:20:49 AM »
Alister MacKenzie? Despite the fact I fear it's too early for him, it is what he did at Kingston Heath.

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."