So, what should they do with #17?

[Kalen Braley]

Ernie Els made 6 on the 17th yesterday.  In an interview after his round he was asked his thoughts on the 17th hole:

"Blow it up." was his first comment.  "I just worked hard for 4.5 hours just to lose it all in one swing". "This is a dumb golf hole".

I guess it's safe to say Ernie doesn't like the 17th hole.

I find his comments borderline laughable.  Not only did he miss his tee shot, but his short chip on was also bad almost going in the water again.  Then his next chip was pretty poor, followed by another poor putt for double bogey.

I think the tour pros shoot themselves in the foot by crying wolf too much.  They complain about every last thing and eventually I'd like to think the guys doing the course setup just stop listening to thier bitching and moaning.

[Ed Oden]

Having said that and having played the hole, it is a mystery to me how it could get into the collective heads of all the touring pros.  Its just not that tough.  Anywhere else, a tour player with a wedge in their hands is looking to put it inside 10 feet.  Missing the green doesn't even enter their minds.   

Lots of people believe that, but it's a myth.  Take Tiger.  From 125 to 150 yards out, he has hit the green 70% of the time this year.  He has averaged 23 feet from the pin, when hitting from that distance.  

The world's best player misses the green 30% of the time from that distance.  When he does hit the green, he is 23 feet from the pin on average.  

I dislike this hole.  The risk/reward ratio is out of whack.  Without hitting a poor shot, touring pro's can and do make 8 there.  That's what happens when you build a hole that is 100% penal.  

Jim:

Just to be clear, I didn't say a tour player always hits it inside 10 feet from that distance.  Rather, I said that was their goal.  I agree with Dan.  If they miss the green from that distance it is typically because they were aggressive and fired at the pin rather than the center of the green.  If you took the water away, didn't put a flag on the green and asked a tour player to just hit that green, how many times do you think they would miss?  The ONLY reason they have so much trouble is that it is in their heads.  I just think it is really interesting that arguably the 17th is more intimidating to the tour pro than it is to John Doe golfer.

Ed

[Chuck Brown]

My opinion on TPC 17:  Don't change it.  Just don't repeat it anywhere else.  One is enough.

[David Stamm]

My opinion on TPC 17:  Don't change it.  Just don't repeat it anywhere else.  One is enough.

Unfortunately, Dye and others have repeated it elsewhere at nauseam. I'm not saying the hole should not challenge the best players in the world, but there were some very good shots yesterday that ended up wet.


"The greatest courses invariably offer a choice of alternatives." - Simpson/Wethered

[Tom_Doak]

David S:

To the best of my knowledge, Pete Dye has only built the island hole twice -- first at the TPC at Sawgrass, then at the Stadium Course at PGA West, where his steady clients Joe Walser and Ernie Vossler INSISTED that he build another island green instead of just a peninsula green.  (I happened to be sitting in the meeting.)

Other than those, I don't believe Pete has built another island green.  His sons have built lots of them, and some of those courses use the father's name; and lots of other architects have built them also.  But Pete really only wanted to build the one.

[Matt_Cohn]

David S:

To the best of my knowledge, Pete Dye has only built the island hole twice -- first at the TPC at Sawgrass, then at the Stadium Course at PGA West, where his steady clients Joe Walser and Ernie Vossler INSISTED that he build another island green instead of just a peninsula green.  (I happened to be sitting in the meeting.)

Other than those, I don't believe Pete has built another island green.  His sons have built lots of them, and some of those courses use the father's name; and lots of other architects have built them also.  But Pete really only wanted to build the one.

Paiute, in Vegas, I think.

[David Stamm]

David S:

To the best of my knowledge, Pete Dye has only built the island hole twice -- first at the TPC at Sawgrass, then at the Stadium Course at PGA West, where his steady clients Joe Walser and Ernie Vossler INSISTED that he build another island green instead of just a peninsula green.  (I happened to be sitting in the meeting.)

Other than those, I don't believe Pete has built another island green.  His sons have built lots of them, and some of those courses use the father's name; and lots of other architects have built them also.  But Pete really only wanted to build the one.

Tom, I have by no means played all of Dye's courses, but here is another. The 15th at Paiute's Wolf course....




My comment was not meant to only point out Dye. Others have done the island green many, many times.

[George Pazin]

Revert to the original intended design with water only on the right.

I thought the original design called for it to be an island in a sea of sand.

I'd love to see it surrounded by unkempt hardpan, kind of like a big wasteland, although aesthetically I think it would then look really out of place.

Who's right on the size, Brad or Tom? I thought I remembered reading it's pretty big, and 4500 sq ft isn't so big.

[rjsimper]

Paiute, in Vegas, I think.

Not built by Pete...

[David Stamm]

Paiute, in Vegas, I think.

Not built by Pete...

Ryan, are sure about that? I know the Snow and Sun courses were not, but I remember during SWWOG episode that pitted Annika vs Karrie Dye talking about what HE had done on the Wolf. Maybe I'm wrong and if so, I stand corrected and apologize.

[Tim Gavrich]

I think it's a perfectly good hole, at a great time in the round for television viewing.

Strategy and alternatives are good and all, but sometimes the golfer should be asked to hit a specific shot.  I don't object to it; it's just a different test.  I would object to having 12 Sawgrass #17s in a round, of course, but one is fine for that golf course.  Ernie needs to make a better swing next time.

[C. Squier]

I love it.  The boys are thinking about that shot while they're eating their Fruit Loops in the locker room.  Not to mention they will play it 4 times.  Miss it once, hit it the other 3 times.  I can't imagine the number of players hitting it all 4 days is very high, so its not like they're throwing away the tournament if they miss it once, or even twice. 

All the b!tching (re: Ernie Els) just futher convinces me that Tour guys are like me when playing video game golf.  They want a perfect round, and the second the video game gods gives them a bit of bad luck, they throw a fit.  Except there's no reset button in real life. 

FURTHERMORE, its no more difficult than the 12th at Augusta, but you don't see EE walking around telling ANCG members to blow it up. 

Furtherfurthermore, people travel from all over to play #17.  Luckily with their greens fee, they get to play 17 other fun holes.  Changing it would change an icon, as much as I hate the idea of a "signature" hole. 

[Tom_Doak]

The fact that the hole inspires such debate is one test of its worth.

Clint:  do you really think nobody hits the green four days in a row?  The failure percentage is not nearly that high.  There was one windy day a few years ago when 68 players went in the drink, but that was a rare one.

I do remember that the guy who was the most vocal against the hole prior to the first TPC event on the new course was Jerry Pate.  Then he went out and played the hole in three under par for the week -- three twos and a three!

[George_Bahto]

I’ve played the hole 5 times and from the tee they’re using it’s hard for me to feel sorry for these great players.

I wish it was not repeated by others just for the sake of sensationalism or what ever their motives though.

Pete has them (and everyone else) thinking about this hole through their whole round and the wonderful part, to me, is that while you are coming down 16 you’ve got enough trouble on your hands and off to your right here it is - just waiting for you.

A pro with one of his wedges in hand should be able to handle this hole even with as firm as it has been these couple of days.

Hit to the short middle to be a bit safe and if you want to be hero go for the pin and take your chances of possibly blowing a round.

Certainly with a wind like today it really complicates it all, making the green in essence considerably smaller but so what  (these guys are good they’re continually telling us !!!) - quit whining and suck it up guys!!   

Pete’s the master at playing with the pro’s heads - good for him!

Most of the time the green is “soft” enough to accept a decent shot.

Leave it alone.

[C. Squier]

The fact that the hole inspires such debate is one test of its worth.

Clint:  do you really think nobody hits the green four days in a row?  The failure percentage is not nearly that high.  There was one windy day a few years ago when 68 players went in the drink, but that was a rare one.

Of course its not everyone, but its obviously high enough to make every player worry about it during their round and complain about it afterwards.  Has to be some statistical relevance to that, somewhere.

My point was, its a hole that is equally hard for everyone.  You can be reasonable sure that every player is nervous enough on the tee box to make a bad swing.  Its not a hole that only mind-$&$#'s a few players because it sets up weird to them. 

[JohnV]

I played it two days in a row a couple of years ago.  The first day there was no wind and it was easy.  The second day there was about 10-15 MPH in the face and it was brutal.  Only one of our foursome got it on the green in two tries.

I like the hole and think that it is fine for the pros and for the average player.  If you ask the average golfer who just played it if he thought it should be changed and I doubt you would hear very many say yes.

At least you don't have to take a boat to it while it floats in a lake like the silly one on Idaho.

[John Sheehan]

I wish it was not repeated by others just for the sake of sensationalism or what ever their motives though.

Pete has them (and everyone else) thinking about this hole through their whole round and the wonderful part, to me, is that while you are coming down 16 you’ve got enough trouble on your hands and off to your right here it is - just waiting for you.

A pro with one of his wedges in hand should be able to handle this hole even with as firm as it has been these couple of days.

Hit to the short middle to be a bit safe and if you want to be hero go for the pin and take your chances of possibly blowing a round.

Certainly with a wind like today it really complicates it all, making the green in essence considerably smaller but so what  (these guys are good they’re continually telling us !!!) - quit whining and suck it up guys!!   

Pete’s the master at playing with the pro’s heads - good for him!

Most of the time the green is “soft” enough to accept a decent shot.

Leave it alone.

Amen. I agree completely with Mr. Bahto on this one.  I am not normally a fan of penal design; but if you are going to go in, might as well go all the way in.  Mr. Dye created this course for the tour players.  If I remember correctly a quote from him, he said something to the effect that once you these guys thinking, they are in trouble.  According the Nick Faldo, he used to check the pin position, the yardage and the wind conditions and then practice a specific shot for the 17th before his round.  As another poster said, these guys are thinking of that hole over their breakfast cereal.  I think the hole perfectly reflects Mr. Dye's purpose in designing it and it comes at a time in the round where the stakes are high; so it's perfectly placed too.  Leave it alone. 

[Mike Policano]

A few years ago Jeff Sluman asked about the 17th. He said that it was an easy hole for a pro 361 days a year. But for four days it was a scary hole.

I have played the hole a dozen times. I have always thought the 17th at Seccession is harder.

[Allan Long]

I have played the hole and I love it (and....my first ever shot there found the water)--leave it alone.

If this hole was 190, there might be an issue. But, these are the best players in the world with a short iron in their hands. Regardless of wind conditions, firm greens etc., the hole is playable. If the hole was #8 instead of #17 would we even have this discussion? It seems to me that the timing of the hole in the round is what really gets the players attention.

I will say this. From the time I arrived in the parking lot (o.k., before I went to bed the night before I first played it) I was thinking of that hole. I cannot think of a single other hole on any golf course where that was the case.

[Jim Johnson]

A sketch of the hole, from the yardage book of George Lucas...

http://www.caddybytes.com/TPC_Stadium_Course_Yardage_Book_Picture.htm.htm


JJ

[Adam Clayman]

I wonder if I'm the only player to ever have hit both the bunker and the water on the same shot?

Yup, My ball hit the right corner of the bunker, in the sand, and plopped out into the water. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

I like it the way it is.  If I were to do anything I would give the player a little better view of the green from a tee that is elevated four or five feet.  It is easier to see the green at the Stadium Course.  Maybe it is the rocks there.  As for Secession, 17 is too hard.  The last time I played it the wind was blowing and the green so firm that it was impossible to hold.

[Brett Morris]

Well Ernie just hit it to three feet .  Maybe his opinion will change today.

I'd just be happy to get there and see it at some stage, let alone play it.  Leave it alone.


.....nope missed the putt, probably stay the same 

[Rick Shefchik]

The problem with 17 is our old friend, Maintenance Meld. The green is very firm, but the water is too soft to play a running shot.

[Mike Erdmann]

This concept of an Island type green is not new to American gca. I've seen several courses built pre-1930 where the concept was used. Eastmoreland's penultimate is but one example.

Adam, Eastmoreland's 17th is not an island green at all.  The left side of the green juts out into the water, but the water is only on the left side of the hole.....as much room as you want to bail out to the right.