[Joel_Stewart]

Here are a few pictures of TPC San Francisco Bay, previously called Stonebrea.   As I said on the other post, it's one heell of a golf course.  Built on 1,100 acres, it winds itself around the hills overlooking San Francisco.  There are home sites on the first 4 or 5 holes.   There is not a weak or dumb hole on the course.  The great thing about the course is the ground game is ALIVE.  Gives you many-many options on nearly every hole.

The 10th, a moderate par 4 playing down hill into the wind.  Need to position your self about 200 yards off the tee in between the bunkers to an uphill shot to the green.  The green is located in the distance behind the large middle bunker.






The 11th is a great par 3, around 210 yards.  Play to the right and allow the ball to roll on.  Left is dead.



The 12th is in my mind the best hole on the course and a world class par 5.  There are a dozen ways to play the hole (literally).  A down hill par 5 playing about 500 yards, you can bite off as much as you want on both the tee shot and 2nd shot trying to pick many of the different angles and funnels.   Its also reachable in 2.  This photo is from the landing area of the drive.  You can play safe to the right of the bunker, go over the bunker and hope to roll it down or go left of the bunker for another chance to roll it on or go straight at the green.  Fantastic!

[Kyle Henderson]

As always, it's impossible to judge a course from pictures, but along with your descriptions this place looks impressively challenging and fun.

I'm looking forward to watching the Nationwide Tour there.

[Joel_Stewart]

They had a Monday qualifier for the Nationwide event here last year and low round was 67.  The players raved about the course, so I am told.  Its not cookie cutter.

[Kyle Henderson]

It's probably one of the few sites in the east bay that could get more windy than the abandoned venue at Wente.

[Matt_Cohn]

Every set of pictures of this course gets better and better.

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt - I think it's mainly because the first set posted on here - those from the old website, really, really sucked and absolutely mischaracterized the course.

It is pretty spectacular.

I'm not sure it's going to be everyone's cup of tea, though.  It is definitely cartball, and some of the holes are rather severe.

I will say though, as I did last fall when this first came up, that I really enjoyed my round there.

TH

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Is this course strictly private or do they allow some public play? I am going to the Bay area next weekend and if I have time for a second round after Pasatiempo this like it might be a good one if its possible to get on.

[Tom Huckaby]

Is this course strictly private or do they allow some public play? I am going to the Bay area next weekend and if I have time for a second round after Pasatiempo this like it might be a good one if its possible to get on.

Patrick - check the other thread - Joel mocked me for asking this.

It is a private club but I have to believe with them still looking for members, if you call and ask nicely you can find a way.

TH

[Mike Benham]

Is this course strictly private or do they allow some public play? I am going to the Bay area next weekend and if I have time for a second round after Pasatiempo this like it might be a good one if its possible to get on.

It's best to call the course directly however, it is approximately 60 miles from Pasatiempo to Stonebrae and depending on the day of the week and time of the day, I wouldn't wish that drive on anyone ....

[Sean Leary]

Huck,

Is it on similar terrain to The Bridges?

[Kalen Braley]

Is this course strictly private or do they allow some public play? I am going to the Bay area next weekend and if I have time for a second round after Pasatiempo this like it might be a good one if its possible to get on.

It's best to call the course directly however, it is approximately 60 miles from Pasatiempo to Stonebrae and depending on the day of the week and time of the day, I wouldn't wish that drive on anyone ....

If its on the weekend, he just might have a chance...during a weekday, he'd be pretty much screwed.

On the bright side, the course is pretty close to the Oakland airport if your catching a flight outta there.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike speaketh the truth.

Sean - you mean THE BRIDGES AT SAN RAMON?  

It's sort of similar terrain, only more severe, more up and down.

TH

[Joel_Stewart]

It can't even be mentioned in the breath as The Bridges.  There is nothing remote to compare other than there are 18 holes.

Don't waste your time calling the club.  The pro knows the score and will not allow any outside play.  Even as a panelist, I was not allowed to bring a guest and had to play with the pro and god forbid, another panelist!

[Tom Huckaby]

It can't even be mentioned in the breath as The Bridges.  There is nothing remote to compare other than there are 18 holes.

Don't waste your time calling the club.  The pro knows the score and will not allow any outside play.  Even as a panelist, I was not allowed to bring a guest and had to play with the pro and god forbid, another panelist!

LOL!  God forbid, indeed.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

Put you on the spot ... given your own admission that TPC / SF is one "heell of a golf course" please give me some placement of the layout when compared to all other courses within a 100-mile radius of where it is.

Would it make your top five -- top ten, etc, etc.

Many thanks ...

p.s. If you compared the layout to Kidd's work at Bandon which would you assess as the better layout and why ? Thanks ...

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:

You didn't ask me, but I am going to give you my opinion anyway. 

Ranking in terms of courses within 100 miles (note I assume that includes the Monterey Peninsula) - maybe top 20 - toward the bottom of that - but that includes some VERY strong courses so it's little knock on Stonebrae.  I would say it's in the top 3 in the East Bay with little doubt.

Comparison to Bandon Dunes - not that far off, to be honest.  And I really like Bandon Dunes, way more than most in here.  Stonebrae is pretty unique and pretty great.  It just doesn't have an ocean nor all that goes with that.

TH

[Joel_Stewart]

Haven't thought about it but since everything out of my mouth is without thought I would say its top 10 in the bay area.  Thats not saying much since its behind O Club, SFGC and Pasatiempo.  Probably slighlty behind Cal Club and maybe Meadow Club.  I think its even with Mayacama (which I think is vastly overrated).  If we add the courses in Monterey, then it drops into the top 20.  I like it better than The Preserve which I also think is overrated but not in the class of most of the courses on the 17 mile drive.

Bandon is better but its different so except for the architect its not a fair comparison.  Different bunkering, different soil and terrain.  The pro said the average wind speed at TPC is 7mph and I'll assume much higher in Bandon and DMK takes that into play perfectly.

I would think it has a shot at top 40 or 50 for GolfWeeks modern list and should make top 10 best new for Golf Digest although as Tom said it's not everyones cup of tea.   For all those panelists that like Fazio style, its not going to be their type of course.

[Kalen Braley]

Joel,

Too funny about the average wind speed.  That would be 0 in the mornings and 14 in the afternoon for an average of 7.  For anyone who has lived in the bay area and the east bay in particular they know about the afternoon winds which can be counted on like old faithful.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel / Tom:

On the Doak scale the number would be ?

Is it fair to say that TPC / SF is just better than a number of east or west Bay area courses that are available to be played but really doesn't have the overall juice to be rated among the top overall courses in the same vicinity ?

Joel, if you had ten rounds betwenn Bandon Dunes and TPC / SF what would the split be and why ?

Also you mention that TF partisans would not really like the layout. Why is that ?

Thanks ...

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:

I continue to find it funny you address some questions only to me, even though I've played all the courses in question, most many times.

 

SO....

1.  Doak Scale - whatever the hell the number is that means play if you are within 100 miles.  I wouldn't say it necessitates a separate trip to the area.

2. It is fair to say exactly what you said, I think.

3.  7 Bandon Dunes, 3 Stonebrae.  But I do so love the ocean.  So perhaps this is why you DIDN'T ask me?

 

[Joel_Stewart]

Is it fair to say that TPC / SF is just better than a number of east or west Bay area courses that are available to be played but really doesn't have the overall juice to be rated among the top overall courses in the same vicinity ?

You must be writing a book?

What courses are you talking about in the Bay Area?  Its way better than Half Moon Bay, Harding Park, Olympic's Ocean course,  Ruby Hill or Poppy Ridge.

Tom is right, its about 7-3 or 6-4 depending on how I am playing

Its a good strong 6 on Doaks scale.

The Fazio type raters are not going to like the brownish fescue fairways and the awkward lies.  They are also not going to like a few forced carries, a few blind shots and the fact that to get to a pin position on the left you may have to run the ball up on the right.

[Neal_Meagher]

Joel,

I don't know if you are aware or not, but your former Lake course super, Joe Burnat, and irrigation tech, Scott Clem, were THE guys who built the course for Highland Golf, the same company that built Bandon Dunes for Kidd.  Also built by that firm for Kidd was Nanea, and the currently under construction Huntsman Springs in Driggs, Idaho among others.

I have no doubt about Kidd and his associate's role in routing the holes over such tough terrain, but I  think you must give tremendous credit for the individudual shaping and construction of the specific features to Joe and Scott.  With the Castle course and Machrinash II underway simultaneously, I am sure that Kidd felt lucky to have such competent builders making his efforts all the better (think Russell and Morcom in Australia for MacKenzie).

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

You've got to help me out here ...

If the course is a possible 8 on the Doak scale then it would merit serious consideration for top 100 status -- at minimum top 50 modern.

If you think the course is top 20 for a 100-mile radius then there's plenty of other courses in the same area that should be rated nationally -- does that sound right to you ?

Joel, if you had to stack side-to-side Pasatiempo against TPC / SF what you say is the better overall course ? You can apply the same ten round question I mentioned previously.

Appreciate your take on the TF philosophy and those attracted to it. No doubt the uneven lies and blind shots but other shot execution strategies would make many of them uncomfortable.

Joel, given the ration of rounds played between Bandon and TPC / SF - are you saying that the former is twice the layout of the latter ?

Huck:

If a course doesn't require a "separate" visit when in the area then it would not make my personal top 100. As a comparison -- Ballyneal in Colorado does require a separate trip -- ditto Black Mesa and both would make my top 100 in the USA.

[Joel_Stewart]

You may be right although with the way raters flock to new courses it may have an outside chance to break in at the end of the list.  I say this because IMHO lesser courses such as Mayacama and The Preserve have made it.   Pasatiempo is not in the top 100 currently which as you know shows some discrepiencies.  

As for the rating, I think Tom Doak would really like this course.   Its no less than a 6.  Furthermore if it plays out like others mentioned above, it might break into the top 100.

Another reason it may not rate with some panelists which I should have mentioned before is the course is very physical (especially with the wind)  and will flat wear out a panelist who likes to smooth it around.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Joel,

It looks very enticing.

The one area I have some questions about Kidd's designs are the green internals and surrounds.

Convince me they are better than those at Bandon Dunes, which I found a bit disappointing.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()