Can we change their minds or are we fighting a losing battle?

[Jerry Kluger]

A friend of mine recently went on a golf trip with 7 other guys and they played Mattaponi Springs in Virignia.  The group is made up of fairly serious golfers who play once or twice a week at public venues. 

When I asked my friend if he enjoyed the course his response was that they should blow up the greens.  He said there were so many slopes and contours that all was missing was a clown's nose.  He felt the greens were impossible to putt and you had no idea what line to play on the greens.  I told him that greens like that are fun, challenging, and really put a premium on shot placement.  He said that they felt they were ridiculous.

I'm wondering, are we who post here a very small minority of golfers and the features that we enjoy are way out of touch with the golfing public?  If it is simply a matter of educating golfers then how do we go about doing it? Players like my friend's group are not going to go back to these courses and that would be a shame. 

[Daryl David]

We are definitely a small minority.  All I have to do is read the bewildered looks on other golfers faces when I talk about golf.  It usually only takes a few minutes before someone will change the subject back to their preferred topics:  equipment technology, how far they hit it, the cart girl, beer, the hot dogs at the turn, Tiger. 

Once on a 13 day marathon across Ireland and Scotland visiting all the great links, 6 of the 8 guys on the trip agreed that 2 of us should be prohibited from talking any more about the golf courses and their design elements, strategy, history etc.  We were boring them to death.

[Kalen Braley]

Great question Jerry,

I often wonder the same thing because for the most part I usually play with different people for most of my rounds.  Sad to say I've heard those kind of comments much more than I've heard comments more in-line to GCA'ers.com

I don't know if we're out of touch, but safe to say we're likely in the minority.  Its crazy how much all of what people see on TV really translates over to the local game...and even more baffling how it would seem that our friends on the other side of the pond are seemingly impervious to this.  Perhaps Americans really are just sheep as the cliche goes!!

Thankfully, I've got many choices here in Utah with fun undulating greens!!

[Jerry Kluger]

Kalen: I'm hoping that the conditions remain firm this week so the players will be confronted with some very challenging recovery shots and severe putts as a result of the contours in the greens.  If that's the case then perhaps they will be viewed as challenges and not gimmicks. 

[John Kavanaugh]

A friend of mine recently went on a golf trip with 7 other guys and they played Mattaponi Springs in Virignia.  The group is made up of fairly serious golfers who play once or twice a week at public venues. 

When I asked my friend if he enjoyed the course his response was that they should blow up the greens.  He said there were so many slopes and contours that all was missing was a clown's nose.  He felt the greens were impossible to putt and you had no idea what line to play on the greens.  I told him that greens like that are fun, challenging, and really put a premium on shot placement.  He said that they felt they were ridiculous.

I'm wondering, are we who post here a very small minority of golfers and the features that we enjoy are way out of touch with the golfing public?  If it is simply a matter of educating golfers then how do we go about doing it? Players like my friend's group are not going to go back to these courses and that would be a shame. 

Jerry,

I have heard achitectural experts say the same thing about greens built by Art Hills.

[Phil Benedict]

Jerry,

In my experience, the golfing public at large differs from the GCA crowd in the following ways:

1.  They equate lush conditions with quality;

2.   Ultrafast greens are the ultimate;

3.   They don't mind trees unless they acquire an understanding how trees can adversely affect points 1 and 2;

3.   The are neutral to negative towards blind shots and other quirky features;

4.   They are indifferent to the affect of technology on architecture.

This is not meant to be condescending towards golfers who don't share the obsessions of GCA'ers.  It's just a game and how one enjoys it doesn't have any moral consequences.

[Bill_Yates]

Jerry,
How many of those guys who were playing have ever played in the UK or Ireland?  My guess is "none."  Having seen heavily contoured greens on courses where the game began might change their opinion.

Daryl,
Your buddies may have been sick of talking about course design features, but I think the more important issue is did they actually enjoy playing those courses?

[Daryl David]

Daryl,
Your buddies may have been sick of talking about course design features, but I think the more important issue is did they actually enjoy playing those courses?

They really seem to enjoy themselves, but you never quite know whether it is the "trip" or the golf they like the most.  There is hope for them though.  After 4 or 5 trips, most will agree the most fun they have each time is at North Berwick.  I think it may be sinking in!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jerry

Can we change their minds or are we fighting a losing battle?

I believe it is part of the magic of golf that allows each of us to have our own opinion on golf and the courses we play.

I am a minority on GCA.com, but that has not stopped me, it has in fact encouraged me to continue my quest that golf is all about fun and enjoyment. Once you loose sight of that, your game takes on a different form, always competitive, looking to improve at all costs, anger and frustration sets in and of course your game starts to slide. The need to use artificial aids to see it they help put your game back on form, but ultimately golf is actually all about you and your state of mind. By being relaxed and enjoying your game you tend to produce your best games, well I do, well did.

How many play 9 hole course these days, how many dismiss them because they are only 9 holes, yet they cannot only offer the most fun but a challenge as well.

Golf is for all, but it’s the relaxed player who benefits from the variety of courses available today. Those poor guys who feel the need to play golf as a constant competition are the real losers. Their inability to take on a course, to enjoy the experience, will always result in something missing from their game and I would expect them to be the most critical.

So, I really don’t think we can change their minds, nor do I feel we are fighting a losing battle – I suppose in a sorry way, we have won because certain courses will be less congested.

[John Kavanaugh]

The simple fact you are missing is that most GCAers would not cross the street to play a Bob Lohmann design and if they did they would find flaw after flaw after flaw.  I think your buddies would fit in here better than you think.

[Jerry Kluger]

JK: The problem is that my buddies may be the golfers that are deciding what direction golf course architecture shall follow.  These same guys may complain when they aren't getting flat lies in the fairways or have to play a bump and run shot into a green.  Eye candy and scoring opportunities are too often how the general golfing public judges a course and that is too bad.

[Andy Hughes]

The problem is that my buddies may be the golfers that are deciding what direction golf course architecture shall follow. 

Jerry, I hear ya.    I can't get any of my friends here in our neck of the woods to play the PB Dye Course--they'd all prefer to turn the other way and play Whiskey Creek.  On the other hand, I have forced my golf trip pals to play 5 Strantz courses as well as World Woods the last 3 years.  They have actually enjoyed the courses more than I might have expected (though Tobacco Road was easily the most polarizing course I have ever taken us to). 
Take solace in Bandon having done so well!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jerry,

The same exists here at KBM's Lederach. Center line bunkers and challenging greens are not usually found on public courses in this area. Some people judge a course on their first experience and choose not return. Others like the challenge of playing such a course and return to learn the nuances.

See the other thread on "dumbing down." Generally speaking, most recreational golfers like a course that doesn't beat them up.

[Jay Flemma]

Great comment about Lederach.

Guys, as Umberto Eco wrote, the easiest  way for evil to gain a foothold is for good people to do nothing.  We've made serious inroads.  We just have to keep fighting TV and PR firms.  Rome wasn't built in a day.

[John Kavanaugh]

Great comment about Lederach.

Guys, as Umberto Eco wrote, the easiest  way for evil to gain a foothold is for good people to do nothing.  We've made serious inroads.  We just have to keep fighting TV and PR firms.  Rome wasn't built in a day.

Jay,

If you want to call promoting the work of PB Dye and Lohmann inroads, I'll keep taking the back roads.

[jeffwarne]

We are definitely a small minority.  All I have to do is read the bewildered looks on other golfers faces when I talk about golf.  It usually only takes a few minutes before someone will change the subject back to their preferred topics:  equipment technology, how far they hit it, the cart girl, beer, the hot dogs at the turn, Tiger. 

Once on a 13 day marathon across Ireland and Scotland visiting all the great links, 6 of the 8 guys on the trip agreed that 2 of us should be prohibited from talking any more about the golf courses and their design elements, strategy, history etc.  We were boring them to death.

Daryl,
I bet if you search some pages/ threads on this site you'll see more references to "equipment technology(many threads), How far people hit it(ditto),  the cart girl (many references and perhaps should be more), beer(plenty of these),  hot dogs at the turn  (a complete thread on that one recently),  Tiger (too many to count)"  than you'll see on any design elements or startegy.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jerry

JK: The problem is that my buddies may be the golfers that are deciding what direction golf course architecture shall follow.  These same guys may complain when they aren't getting flat lies in the fairways or have to play a bump and run shot into a green.  Eye candy and scoring opportunities are too often how the general golfing public judges a course and that is too bad.


These guys, your buddies sound interesting. You may think that they have the power to change the direction of golf, but their inability to take on and face a course with its little upsets shows their calibre as golfers. The game is based upon challenge - that is the whole point - to face it, play through or around it whilst at the same time enjoying the experience.

[Marty Bonnar]

Jay,
Umberto Eco knows Foucault about golf course architecture

I have come to the point of not even beginning to discuss architectural merit or otherwise with either my golfing buddies or strangers with whom I may be partnered. The quantum of eyeball-glazing is almost always a dead giveaway of how much 99.9% of the golfing public care about golf course design.

Hit the ball and move on...

FBD.

[Andy Troeger]

When I asked my friend if he enjoyed the course his response was that they should blow up the greens.  He said there were so many slopes and contours that all was missing was a clown's nose.  He felt the greens were impossible to putt and you had no idea what line to play on the greens.  I told him that greens like that are fun, challenging, and really put a premium on shot placement.  He said that they felt they were ridiculous.

I'm wondering, are we who post here a very small minority of golfers and the features that we enjoy are way out of touch with the golfing public?  If it is simply a matter of educating golfers then how do we go about doing it? Players like my friend's group are not going to go back to these courses and that would be a shame. 

Jerry,
I know nothing about the course you mention, but I have to admit that sometimes I think as a group we tend to praise undulating greens TOO much. Undulation for the sake of undulation can be overdone as much as anything else. I love Lost Dunes in Michigan, but more because I think the routing is amazing than because I love the greens. Some of them worked very well for me, but some were admittedly a bit much for my liking. I only had the chance to play it once thus far, but it seemed like I had similar putts (up, down, left, right...). 

I agree with Melvyn in that golf is about fun and enjoyment above all. Not everyone should or does have to like undulating greens or any other feature. Heck its ok for people to like tree-lined parkland golf better than links or any other type if that's what floats their boat. If everyone liked the exact same thing we could build the same golf course everywhere and call it a day on this site and in pubs worldwide. That's not to say there aren't general principles of golf course design that make for better golf courses (drainage for one, but there are many), but at some level its all subjective and people have the right to think what they want.

One friend of mine rates every course with a strong emphasis on what he shoots and how the course is conditioned. He's not a rater...that's just how he evaluates courses for his own enjoyment. We often disagree on what courses we like, but he has his criteria and sticks to them and I respect him for it even if its different from my own.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have been on this site for quite a while now and don't see where you guys are any smarter than my buds who are not stuck in front of a computer at work.  I constantly talk about turboe boosts and angles with everyone I golf with.  We discuss carries, strategy, drainage and green speed.  What are we missing that you see and are afraid of boring us with.

Is it boring to say to a playing partner.."If you hug that bunker you will have a better angle to the green."?

[John_Cullum]

...  the cart girl (many references and perhaps should be more), beer(plenty of these),  hot dogs at the turn  (a complete thread on that one recently), 

Trust me men, you give JW a pretty cart girl with cold Budweiser and a good hot dog at the turn, he doesn't care where on this planet he's playing.

Jeff could write the bible of how to enjoy a round of golf

[Tommy Williamsen]

Your friends should be shot.  I played Mattaponi Springs this spring.  It was outstanding.  The greens certainly had a lot of movement but it put a lot of importance to the irons.  You need to think about where you want to hit your shot.  If you can't hit your irons well enough to be in proper spot, tough luck you get what you deserve. 

[jeffwarne]

Sarge,
You've gotta make it up to Yankeeland this summer.
In addition to some classic golf you've got to play The Goat.
Best ground golf this side of the pond.

Although they don't have a cart girl -somehow the course plays up to the clubhouse 4-5 times in 9 holes(well sort've) , they did a have bartendress (as in bartender/goddess)that definitely inflated a few tabs.
They let her go because the Board felt she dressed too seductively which is interestingly why we were consistently giving her a raise.
Totally coincidental that the new male bartender is married to a female  board member that helped vote the first one out.

[Bill Gayne]

I'm a bit surprised that your friends didn't come back raving about the zoysia grass. That's what gets most people excited I've talked to who have no particular interest in GCA. I've only played the course once but I found it well done.

...  the cart girl (many references and perhaps should be more), beer(plenty of these),  hot dogs at the turn  (a complete thread on that one recently), 

You missed how good it gets when the banter gets to the best socks.

[Matt Bosela]

Unfortunately, in many respects we're in a pretty definitive minority here.

Most of my playing partners think that a centerline bunker just penalizes a perfect drive and just look at me like I'm crazy when I tell them it was put there to provide you with the decision to go left or right of it.  Playing angles, options at the green, decisions off the tee mean nothing to many of those I play with - they just expect the architect to lay out a straightforward hole and they try to bash it down the middle and hit at every pin.

Maybe I'm playing with the wrong guys  That's why I joined the site in many ways - so I can have 'conversations' with like-minded individuals.