Ideal "Bookends" for the Great Short Par 5?

[Mark_F]

Or, is a great short par five partially dependent upon the company it keeps?

The 13th at Augusta and 4th at RM West have ideal bookends to me.  Difficult, yet not unreasonably so.

But do say the 9th at RCD and Muirfield suffer by comparison?

For Australians, wouldn't the 12th at Kingston Heath be held in higher regard if the 13th was a better hole?  I like the 11th, but the 13th seems pretty weak.  

Are there any other great short par 5s that suffer from what precedes or follows?

[Forrest Richardson]

This is a very good question. I'm not sure it matters as formula is not what golf strives toward. Nonetheless, I have made the observation that -- 4, 5 and 3 -- is the "ideal" sequence among three holes be they all of different pars. This is the opening sequence at CPC and I believe this sequence to be the best. Exceptions, I am certain, abound. As for a "short long" and its company -- perhaps -- 4, 5 and 3 -- is also best, although there are many, many variables just as good I am sure.

[tonyt]

Mark, funny you should mention Kingston Heath.

Since it was altered poorly a few years ago, the 11th is nowadays without question one of the worst holes on the course. The Australasian PGA Tour Pros were very peeved the first time they saw it in it's current guise, and the anger hasn't waned.

The 13th has it's strong admirers, although from my time caddying on tour, it was only really a good hole to a right hole location. Mike Clayton would have a much better informed view on this. In addition to all his playing and architectural experience, he won at the Heath and played well there a number of other times.

[bodgeblack]

mark,

i feel the short par 5 17th at Turnberry is a good example. It is preceded by the tough par 4 16th with its green sloping hard toward a burn and it is followed by the 18th, a really great finisher.

The mixture of tough, easy, tough helps provide a good rythmn to the finish of the Ailsa course.

cheers

jamie

[Kyle Harris]

Since I'm not feeling too creative I went back a few years and looked at some posts.

This topic seems to merit further discussion.

Bumpity Bump Bump.

I'm fond of the topic because in terms of traditional routing methods, the short par 5 often contains some of the more unique terrain on the site (think of par 4.5 holes around 490 yards) and the lead up and result of the bridging that area often yield some great results.

[Tim Bert]

I'm a big fan of the back-to-back long par 4 / short par 5 combo - if the routing works out where they can be parallel all the better.  If they can share a fairway even better!  If the par four can play uphill or into the wind and the par five play downhill or with the wind even better!! 

My home course has a set like this (minus the shared fairway) and I really like it.  It is not uncommon for me to score worse on the par 4 than the par 5.  Often times, it is 6-5.

I also like the idea of following up the short par 5 with a nasty short par 4 that brings birdie or double into play.

[Bart Bradley]

Kyle:

I just finished playing today and was thinking along these lines while playing... One of my home courses has a string of 3 holes that are all relatively easier (but dangerous) surrounding a short par 5....the sequence goes hole #4 -- 495 yd very difficult par 4... then the string of "possible birdie" holes #5 385 yd par 4 (albeit a very demanding wedge approach shot with shaved banks to a water hazard), hole #6 485 yd par 5 and then driveable downhill 335 yd par 4.  (the sequence is followed by a long 220yd difficult par 3 and very difficult 460 yd par 4).  I find this sequencing very interesting....you definitely feel the pressure to score on 5-7 because you know that 8 and 9 are going to be tough to make headway.  I like the idea of having a short par 5 paired with other holes that might allow for good scoring...(I had 1 birdie, 1par, and 1bogie on the three hole sequence today...).

Just my 2 cents.

Bart

[Phil McDade]

Lawsonia's short par 5 5th hole (487 tips, 475 whites) is certainly reachable in two, and folks can even have a mid-iron for a second shot into the green if they catch the downhill LZ to boost their tee shot forward. It's a tight driving hole, with OB right and junk left, but it's easily the most reachable of the course's five par 5s.

Before it sits the terrific par 3 4th, a near-Redan, uphill par 3 that plays 203 from the tips and 175 from the whites. A very tough hole, esp. when the prevailing summer winds from the south are hitting you on the face from the tee. Following the 5th is the par 4 6th, maybe the best of the course's par 4s (439, 403), with a downhill second shot to a terrific green with two tiers side by side. That's followed by the famed boxcar par 3 7th, Langford/Moreau's version of a Short (161, 146 -- it usually plays in the 150 range), and the wonderfully strategic short par 4 8th (339, 322). It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see a golfer playing fairly well to go through this stretch of par 3, 5, 4, 3 in all 4s.

[Mark Pearce]

Actually I think the 9th at Muirfield does well in this regard.  The 8th is a tough driving hole but a good drive sets up a short iron and a possible birdie chance.  10 is a long and tough par 4.  It's all I've got to get close in 2 and a tough mid-iron second for very good players.

[Rich Goodale]

8-13 at Dornoch has two good adjacent sequences:

8-10  superb medium (front tee)/long (back tee) par 4; par-5 along the shore that is very reachable, but only if you can steer your tee shot down the fast lane to the left; one of the best short par-3's on the planet

11-13  tough as nails par 4; par 5 you should comfortably hit in two but rarely do because of great green complex; seductively receptive par-3 that can boost your ego before it is completely destroyed on the next hole (Foxy).....

Homer Goodale

[RichMacafee]

Mark,

12 at K.Heath is a good hole, but it is neither great nor short, so I don't think it should be mentioned in this category. Also, as Tony said, 11 is not the hole it used to be since the 'fairway bunker fiasco'.

I am a big fan of 13, especially since the most recent LHS fairway bunker went in (which is ironic because it was done at the same time and by the same person that did 11).

It's a good question, but personally I don't believe RMW4 is any better because of the fantastic holes that surround it.

15 at Woodlands (also not short) is a sensational hole, even though it is surrounded by 2 of the poorest holes on the course

[Jon Wiggett]

Or, is a great short par five partially dependent upon the company it keeps?

The 13th at Augusta and 4th at RM West have ideal bookends to me.  Difficult, yet not unreasonably so.

But do say the 9th at RCD and Muirfield suffer by comparison?

For Australians, wouldn't the 12th at Kingston Heath be held in higher regard if the 13th was a better hole?  I like the 11th, but the 13th seems pretty weak.  

Are there any other great short par 5s that suffer from what precedes or follows?

Mark,

do I understand you correctly, the hole is held in higher regard if the holes around it are also good? With 13 at ANGC 14 is a super hole but wouldn't you say that it is also the least lauded of the back nine holes. Would 13 be better if it were between 10 amd 11?