[John Kirk]

TH,

I conveniently forgot you played the course the next morning.  For the tenth time, or something like that.   Sorry about forgetting that.

I consider you a very positive and charitable person, based on your history here.  It takes guts to stick your neck out and offer criticism, especially when there are course members and/or architects present.  I admire you for that.  I don't always offer what criticism I have.

I wasn't trying to discredit your opinion, just offering mine in response.  I didn't feel as though any "wounds" had been reopened.

[rjsimper]

I honestly don't understand why everyone is so defensive about the golf course...so Huckaby has an unpopular opinion....it's an opinion at that, and is not an insult to the course, the club, or the architect. 

The very nature of the opinion is that it's subjective...sure, many/most disagree on this topic with Huck, and I'm not here trying to defend him, but really....to say that "you wont stand for it" seems like a bit of an overreaction to a simple criticism...if the objection was to statements that were utterly false (i.e. a certain design feature was added or removed due to a financial restriction, or that Tom Doak had no say in designing holes X, Y, and Z then that is absolutely something worth objecting to in such a strong manner).

Critisicm at a subjective level is in part what this site is all about, and every person is entitled to an opinion, so long as it remains an opinion and not a false statement of fact.  Nobody can factually prove that a high handicapper might not feel that they get beat up all day at Stone Eagle.

Keep in mind all of this, coming from a guy who will readily (at least until he's sick of going around in circles) argue that Stone Eagle is NOT as Tom H. believes...and I honestly love the golf course - having played it twice, I think it's a very special place and even went so far as to name it on my list of 10 courses to which I'd limit myself to playing for the rest of my life as I think it does a great job of representing the Mountain (and to a lesser extent, the desert) genre admirably. 

I disagree with Huckaby vehemently on the subject, but he's entitled to his opinion...certainly in the name of frank discussion on golf course architecture.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom D. - understood, no hassles in the end.  I do understand why you objected; but hopefully you now understand that that one sentence was the final one in a long paragraph of discussion, and wasn't intended as any overall indictment.  You are also right that I injected negative in here where it wasn't warranted, but hopefully you'll also understand that I did so in an attempt to honestly see if my opinion came out wrong for someone I assumed was an average higher handicapper.  Had Bill given me different answers, as God is my witness I would have fallen on my sword and said, well, that just shows how wrong I was.  The answers didn't allow me to say that.  So my opinion stands.

John K. - understood also, and thanks.

Ryan - well said, and thanks also.  What just does continue to surprise me about all of this is hell, I could be completely wrong about this, although I do believe what I believe... but of course I'd say a very similar about Pine Valley - that my Dad would get brutalized there, mainly due to the constant presence of severe hazards - and does that take ANYTHING away from the greatness of that course? 

Perhaps that's a subject for a separate thread - do all courses have to be all things for all people?

I do firmly believe - though I know many find me to be wrong - that my Dad would not have the greatest fun at Stone Eagle.  But please realize that though he is a great man, he definitely SUCKS at this game we love.  He can't get the ball in the air much and any bunker over 3 feet deep means he's gonna pick up for the most part.  Why SHOULD he be expected to have fun at courses on desert mountainsides?

Thus as I say, my comment was meant as no stern critique, but rather a throwaway observation.  Yes it could be wrong, but who cares?  I also said many times I did enjoy myself there, and I do find quite a bit of greatness at the course. 

Oh well, we shall live and learn.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

With praise like that and all the love he gets here, how does Tom stay so humble?

With apologies to Larry The Cable Guy:  "That's funny right there, I don't care who you are."

Mike

[Kalen Braley]

Well stated Ryan,

I too think this is much ado about nothing.  Huck chimed in with his opinion, called it like he sees it, and thats that.

I've yet to see any course on this board be above critical analysis/discussion and don't see why Stone Eagle should be any different.  In light of all the recent commentary about Pebble Beach, I find this whole thing hugely ironic because if a world class top notch course like PB can be beaten into submission why the sensitivity for one persons take on Stone Eagle??

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen (and Ryan):

I've got no problem when people say they don't like this or that about one of my courses.  My problem is only that anytime anyone says anything positive about Stone Eagle, Huck jumps on here to make the same criticism for the 30th time, and won't let go of it no matter how much the original poster disagrees with him. 

I fully respect his right to have his opinion and to stick with it to the end ... I just wonder why he feels compelled to stick his foot into the door on every post about Stone Eagle.  I am pretty certain anyone here who has any interest in the course knows how much Mr. Huckaby, Sr. would likely hate the course, in his son's estimation.  And my invitation to have the father play as my guest to find out if Huck is right still stands, although it's getting a bit late in the season for that.

[Greg Tallman]

I am really confused...

Did the worng Tom apologize in this thread?

[rjsimper]

Kalen (and Ryan):

I've got no problem when people say they don't like this or that about one of my courses.  My problem is only that anytime anyone says anything positive about Stone Eagle, Huck jumps on here to make the same criticism for the 30th time, and won't let go of it no matter how much the original poster disagrees with him. 

I fully respect his right to have his opinion and to stick with it to the end ... I just wonder why he feels compelled to stick his foot into the door on every post about Stone Eagle.  I am pretty certain anyone here who has any interest in the course knows how much Mr. Huckaby, Sr. would likely hate the course, in his son's estimation.  And my invitation to have the father play as my guest to find out if Huck is right still stands, although it's getting a bit late in the season for that.

Tom,

Based on that clarification, I understand why you object...but consider the converse of this, if every time a Stone Eagle thread popped up and I or someone else who liked the course chimed in repeatedly with my same praise and continually pointed out the same positive aspects every single time, even if my "likes" were well documented and known, I don't think you'd object.

I agree that Mr. Huckaby is persistent in his opinion, but that really makes it no less valid and your post took issue (as written) with his opinion that the course brutally beats down the golfer all day, not the fact that he's made the same argument on numerous occasions.  That I could understand an objection...but this looks, upon reading your words, like a rejection of the content of his criticism.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen (and Ryan):

I've got no problem when people say they don't like this or that about one of my courses.  My problem is only that anytime anyone says anything positive about Stone Eagle, Huck jumps on here to make the same criticism for the 30th time, and won't let go of it no matter how much the original poster disagrees with him. 

I fully respect his right to have his opinion and to stick with it to the end ... I just wonder why he feels compelled to stick his foot into the door on every post about Stone Eagle.  I am pretty certain anyone here who has any interest in the course knows how much Mr. Huckaby, Sr. would likely hate the course, in his son's estimation.  And my invitation to have the father play as my guest to find out if Huck is right still stands, although it's getting a bit late in the season for that.

Tom:

I guess you didn't believe my very sincere post from this morning.

I posted in this thead NOT not to jump in and offer my criticism; I asked because I sincerely believed that this might be some evidence that I had wrong, and I was interested in hearing such.  I also don't think I jump into every thread about Stone Eagle with this criticism - good lord, do you think I ENJOY the reaction I get from you and others?  Far from it; after the roasting and toasting I got the first go-round (post TKP), I've stayed the hell out of discussions of this course for the most part.  I really don't need the trouble.

So I participated in this one for the purpose I stated. 

You sell me very, very short if you really believe what you just posted a few minutes ago.

And I thought more of you than to sink this low.

I've said many times I believe Stone Eagle is a very fine golf course, it just has this one odd part that I noted.

The rest to me has gotten pretty sad.

TH

ps to Greg:  I agree, but it's really not worth the fight.

[Joe Perches]

Oh well, we shall live and learn.

Yet the fundamental "huckness of being" shall remain...

I think that most people could play Stone Eagle without losing a ball and that the course is both pretty easy and pretty well done.

My persisting memory and sense of Stone Eagle isn't the course, which I liked well enough because it's a pleasant club and it has interesting features like large and highly shaped greens and plenty of vertical movement, but the course positioning.

Stone Eagle is physically positioned somewhat similarly to courses in Scottsdale like Desert Highlands and Troon, but Stone Eagle is the golf course most elevated above a desert I've ever played.  It has a vast view of Palm Desert and the Coachella valley.  Stone Eagle is also an extremely lush golf course, highly watered and still moderately hard edged.  There are places where the golf course boundary meets extremely dry desert.

Somehow I could never get that sense of oasis that most other desert golf courses provide.  Even in Scottsdale I could get that sense of oasis.  I think that at Stone Eagle it's the total amount of desert in view that prevents it.  I think that made me feel the "manufacturing" of the course more than anything else.  It gave me a sense of our power as humans to make the surroundings suit us rather than the other way round.

Perhaps the target market for SE enjoys that feeling and choses the place just for that.

[Tom Huckaby]

Joe:  well said.  It is a beautiful course with a fantastic ambience, it is really neat how it's perched above the desert and in the mountain canyons, and I have no doubt it serves it's clientele perfectly.

From now on I guess I just leave it at that.  You see what one gets when one ventures any further.

TH

[Bill Brightly]

Wow, good thing I dont post more often! look at the trouble I started...

I also played 36 at Tobacco Road last month...but I know enough not to post those pics!

[Tom Huckaby]

Bill - again, my apologies to you.  My interest was genuine and I appreciate your good-natured repartee.

As for Tobbaco Road, have no fear - it's pretty universely liked in here.

TH

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

I apologize to you for taking the thread in this direction, and for the name-calling.

I don't believe I "sunk" to a low level.  I had read the thread, and did not participate until you had made several posts along the same line that we have discussed before, and then seemed to go even further, with the quote I posted above, but I overreacted to that.

I will cop to being defensive about the course in this regard.  For four years, we spent an enormous amount of effort trying to build a course that would be playable for their potential membership on a very rugged site.  It's not like we didn't think about your line of concern pretty thoroughly. 

We can agree to disagree, especially if your threshold level of concern is "any bunker over three feet deep".  Bunkers that size might have looked pretty silly in the scale of that particular landscape.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom D.:

Now that is more the man I "know" from electronic discussions like this.  Thank you.

And you now nailed it.

See, I can't see how you could have possibly designed this any differently, nor that it would be any good idea to do so.  It's the side of a mountain with a bunch of deep barrancas running through it, for God's sake.  And I know you tried your best to make it playable, as that would seem to be the idea for the potential membership.

But despite what others here might believe, you are not God, nor do I believe you had a Fazio-Shadow Creek budget (did you?).   

There is only so much that could have been done on that site, and should have been done on that site.

And what you did do was create a darn fun course that many will love.  It's beautiful, there are a lot of fun and challenging physical and mental tests to be faced, and as many have said the overall ambience of the place is wonderful.

But what no one could have done is create a course on that site that my Dad would enjoy.  He hates forced carries and he hates bunkers over three feet deep.  Of course yo're right, flattish bunkers on that site would look pretty darn silly.  But that's no concern to my Dad.

Which was really all my intent was today, and before, in making the comment.  It's more about my Dad than it is about the course.   I meant it to be humorous really.  But the more people tried to tell me how wrong I was, the more beligerent I became.

Because dammit, I am NOT wrong.  My Dad would not enjoy playing that course.  He'd enjoy the tacos, but he'd tire of the golf.  And there's nothing anyone could have possibly done differently to change this.  It's about the site, not the course.

TH

ps - I've said all of this before also.  But no matter.   

[Pete Lavallee]

Because dammit, I am NOT wrong.  My Dad would not enjoy playing that course.  He'd enjoy the tacos, but he'd tire of the golf. 

Tom,

We'll never really know until you take him there; I'm surprised you haven't accepted Mr Doak's gracious offer.

[Tom Huckaby]

Because dammit, I am NOT wrong.  My Dad would not enjoy playing that course.  He'd enjoy the tacos, but he'd tire of the golf. 

Tom,

We'll never really know until you take him there; I'm surprised you haven't accepted Mr Doak's gracious offer.

Pete:  no, I know.  I know my Dad.  And while that offer is gracious (and thanks again Tom for making it, as you did before), it's not in Huckaby reality.  My Dad will not go without me, and I have no plans to get down there any time soon, or ever - not by choice, just by family reality.

Another thing that cements it is this:  my Dad also doesn't like playing golf PERIOD any more.  He'll do so to humor me from time to time as I do so love playing with him.  But it better damn well be a course that meets his preferences, or it will be a long day for us all.

My Dad, God love him, does put the C in curmudgeon.

 

TH

ps - I said all THAT before also.  But again, no matter.

[Jim Franklin]

My dad is a horrible golfer, but I think he would enjoy SE's fairways. As for the bunkers, he won't use a sand wedge as he says he is better with a 9 iron so that may be another story.

[Tom_Doak]

Well if your Dad doesn't really enjoy playing golf anymore, PERIOD, then this really WAS "much ado about nothing".

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Well if your Dad doesn't really enjoy playing golf anymore, PERIOD, then this really WAS "much ado about nothing".

 

Yes!  That is the weirdest part of all.

But of course he will play at certain places, to humor me.  I am a very good son.  Interestingly, when he does play, my Dad also does seem to be quite like Jim Franklin's... except for my Dad its his "trusty 7iron"... and theirin lies the problem at so many courses.

 

[Lou_Duran]

Tom Doak,

Being that my first extreme-heat-induced impression of SE is similar to Tom Huckaby's on the specific issue of playability for older, somewhat feeble players, and given that my performance at the recent KPVI suggests that I qualify for inclusion in this group, may I act as the senior Huckaby's proxy and render judgement? 

[Kalen Braley]

Tom H,

I don't get it...how can such a sweet, non-confrontational, glass-is-half-full, never a negative word, pleasant guy such as yourself come from a grumpy, no-golf-loving, bunker-hating, crumegedeon like your poppy?    

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom Doak,

Being that my first extreme-heat-induced impression of SE is similar to Tom Huckaby's on the specific issue of playability for older, somewhat feeble players, and given that my performance at the recent KPVI suggests that I qualify for inclusion in this group, may I act as the senior Huckaby's proxy and render judgement? 

Lou:  you are to my Dad as Tiger Woods is to me.

Older ye may be...

But curmudgeonly nor feeble ye are not.

And quite skilled too ye are.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom H,

I don't get it...how can such a sweet, non-confrontational, glass-is-half-full, never a negative word, pleasant guy such as yourself come from a grumpy, no-golf-loving, bunker-hating, crumegedeon like your poppy?    

Easy.
I'm pretty good at this game, he sucks at it and always has.
But golf is the ONLY thing I have over on the great man who is my Dad.

 

[Lou_Duran]

Tom H,

Shhhhs!  Certainly you don't know how my body feels on the course and how much many of my shots disgust me.  Anyways, Doak thinks I am pretty inflexible anyways, so he might see the comparison.

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